Is it always wrong to buy from a backyard breeder?

[beache]

We are a family of four. After nearly a year of discussion, we are ready to get a Golden puppy. I am having trouble finding a breeder who is fairly close to me, has pups available soon, and doesn't charge an arm and a leg for them.
I found one breeder. The web site was great, the dogs had great lineage, and the price was about $800 for a female. Plus the parents had all health clearances and there was a 2 year health guarantee on the pups. The problem? When I spoke to her, she said she had an outbreak of Parvo virus and had lost 2 pups. I don't know about you, but that sent up red flags for me!
All the other breeders I've contacted either haven't bothered to get back to me, or they're charging $1,200+ for their pups.
Last week I went to my daughters softball game and there was a man there with a gorgeous golden. We started chatting and I asked him where he got his dog. As it turns out, she just had puppies and he will be selling them. We will go to look at them this weekend. I want to get a feel for his home and his family. I know his brother has the male dog. He seemed to be really "into" his dog: he went on & on about how awesome she is, how she sleeps with each of his kids until they fall asleep and then moves on to the next bed. She was 2 years old, had a beautiful coat and was so mellow and sweet.
Maybe this was "meant to be"....Or maybe I'm getting into a world of trouble. Would any of you pursue this, or should I keep looking for breeders?

[Golden Haylee]

I'm no pro, but I would definitely pursue looking at this gentlemans puppies. Even $800.00 seems like a lot to me for a family pet.:eek (just my opinion). Maybe you can meet the father of the puppies as well so you can get a better idea of his temperment, size, color etc.... You've seen the mother and she sounds real sweet. When you visit the home, you will probably get a better "feeling" about whether this is the right route for you or not. Go with your gut. If it doesn't "feel" right, don't do it.
Good luck in your search.

[newbabyzoe]

Ahh....the much heated discussion lol.

You will find many different opinions on this topic. Mine probably wont be popular with some - but thats ok. That's what this is here for...right?

I got my Zoe in much the same way. She is beautiful and healthy and exactly what we wanted in a pup. I spent several months looking in the paper (another no no they say) because none of the local GR breeders could help. When I finally came across the one that seemed to be "it" around Christmas this year...after passing several others up...I was glad I took my time.

Altho she cost much less than most people in here will probably admit to paying, we are a middle income family and let's be real here! We certainly can't afford $800 or more for a dog, but I have always wanted a golden...and was determined to find one in the right atmosphere for the right price. Most of the ads here ranged from $200-$500. A large part of it is where you live.

You will find many people in here who bought their beloved dogs in the same way and wouldnt do it different if they had the chance. As well you will find those who think you have to pay large sums in order to get a decent golden.

I know a big thing for me was to make sure the pups were being raised indoors with an atmosphere like we have, i.e. kids and lots of noise! When you go look at them - take notice of how she has been welped...how much time and expense he took in her area and such. Has he taken them to the vet? It sounds like he cares very much for his dog and will so her pups.

This is just one opinion. Good luck to you...and be sure to come back and post some pics for us to see - we love the puppy pics!

Shannon and Zoe

[geckogirl3]

If I were in your situation, I would consider this guy's puppies, but if he does not have health clearances on the parents, then you could end up with a dysplastic dog that will cost you thousands down the road. Or a dog with a heart problem that suddenly dies on you. I don't think the dogs need to be champions, but hopefully he has had their hips, heart and eyes cleared prior to breeding. Some breeders also check thyroid and elbows before breeding.

[beache]

Thanks for the responses! I've always had cats, but I am so excited to be getting a GR!! I can't wait to see some puppies! We will go to see them on Sunday, and if it's wrong I'll know right away.

[CanadianGolden423]

Yes, it is always wrong. Sorry...I'd rather pay $800 (that's CHEAP considering how much money goes into a quality breeding and raising pups...think stud fee, vet bills, puppies' food, etc etc etc) for a healthy, well bred dog than $400 for an unhealthy dog that may end up in pain its' whole life due to hip dysplasia or other genetic diseases. If you don't want to pay that much, rescue a Golden or another breed (Golden rescue, the pound, etc.) and save a life...don't further irresponsible breeders. It's nice that he has a sweet dog, but there are hundreds of sweet Goldens that are also conformationally correct (or great performance dogs, or both), that are health cleared as well.

Samra

[Mhami]

I'd rather pay $800 for a healthy, well bred dog too, but the problem is that when a healthy, well bred dog is $800 there is usually something to watch out for. In this case the female had an outbreak of Parvo virus and had lost 2 pups. I called a backyard breeder once who had done all the health clearances and was selling their puppies for approximately $800 and it turned out that the female was not yet 2 and could not get all of her clearances yet. But they were going to do it. Another red flag. Most well bred dogs in my area are $1200. I think $800 is a lot, but acceptable. I can afford $1200, but really think that it is way more than I want to spend.

Sorry, but I am still having a real problem with this issue. I have heard of many success stories where people bought their puppies from backyard breeders or rescue shelters and I am sure they did not get all the clearances. Plus, I also keep hearing that even reputable breeders can't guarantee that their dog won't have some sort of problem.

Personally, I am confused as to which direction to go into. I am still not convinced that I should buy from a reputable breeder. I should note that I have also heard stories where people have bought from a backyard breeder and when their dog developed medical problems they were sorry they did so. I am just not sure who keeps insisting that we buy from reputable breeders. Is it the breeders themselves? Or is it from people like me with experience in buying both types?

I know people on this site are not going to admit to it, but I would be curious to take a poll to see how many actually bought from a reliable source with all of the clearances. Or, if they bought from a backyard breeder were they successful in getting a healthy dog.

I know this is a sensitive area. That is why I have never really raised my concerns. However, since it was brought up I thought I would throw it out there.

Thanks for your input and please don't bash me for not knowing.

Marianne

[beache]

I know this is a very emotional subject. I've seen discussions on several boards and they are always heated. I agree with Mhami. It's confusing as hell. Why should I have to spend $1,200 or $1,500 to get a Golden? It seems that even with all the costs taken into account, the price is excessive. A litter of eight $1,500 pups brings in $12,000. There's no way it costs that much for stud fees, vet fees etc. So I do wonder about the motivation of many breeders. Aside from profit, it seems they almost want to keep people from getting Goldens.
I also understand that a well-meaning guy who breeds his dog once or twice to get pups for friends and family could produce unhealthy/inferior pups. But if he and his brother both got clearances on their dogs when they bought them, and he discussed with his vet whether breeding her was a good idea, and he can sell me one at a reasonable price, then this middle class family of four needs to seriously consider his pups as an option.
We have thought long and hard about getting a dog. We considered other breeds. We considered getting a rescue dog. And we considered mutts. But we have always swooned over Goldens. And since this is a very long commitment, we want the breed that will suit us best. And frankly, I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place.
So I probably will gamble on one of these dogs if everything feels right, and just see what happens....

[SweetDaisyDew]

If a golden is what you want, you should have a golden.

Be careful, do your homework, know what to look for, and what to look out for, meet the parents (both parents), talk to your vet, maybe take your prospective puppy to your vet (kind of like you take a used car to an independent mechanic). I do believe it's possible to get good goldens from "backyard breeders" just as it is possible to get unhealthy goldens from reputable breeders.

I would like to see the results of the poll that was suggested...how many of us have purchased our goldens from backyard breeders. I did. She does have health problems (allergies and some other things the vet and I are just keeping an eye on for now), but she's wonderful -- she's not lame, she has an awesome temperament and she's perfect for me. :)

You do need to be very careful though...it's risky. I didn't know then even a fraction of what I do now and I think I was very lucky. Goldens are so easy to get attached to and then if they develop problems, it's not just hard on them, it can be devastating for us.

Were it not for backyard breeders, I doubt the golden retriever would be as popular as it is. In the same breath, and here is the dilemma--backyard breeding would destroy the breed if left unchecked. Shades of gray, like everything.

:003

[geckogirl3]

I got 3 Goldens from the same backyard breeder, but at the time(3 years ago) I didn't know nearly what I know now about checking for clearances and how important that is. She also led me to believe her dogs were all from champion lines, and I didn't know how to check that out either. None of them were anything special and none of them had health clearances.
One dog ended up with hip dysplasia, one turned out just plain ugly, and one of them has a condition called Esophageal Motility Dysfunction. Basically his food doesn't go straight down to his stomach, so he tends to regurgitate if not fed a certain way, and he spits up a lot.
Because of my bad experience, I am willing to pay more in the future to buy from a better breeder, and I know how to check these things out now. It is possible to get puppies from good breeders for less than they are asking. You could ask if they have any older puppies that maybe they hoped were show quality and now they realize are not. Or ask for a puppy that has an obvious flaw against the breed standard, but it shouldn't bother you. I don't think there is any reason to pay over $1000 for a pet quality Golden with all its clearances.

[messano]

< Plus, I also keep hearing that even reputable breeders can't guarantee that their dog won't have some sort of problem.>

No breeder can guarantee that a puppy will not develop a problem, they are living beings and unlike the purchase of a car or washing machine, for instance, are the result of genetic selection and cannot be guaranteed.

However, reputable breeders can at least guarantee that they have done their best to produce healthy puppies from health checked parents with stable and typical temperaments.
It is also the puppy purchasers responsibility to follow the breeders recommendations for diet and exercise when they take their new puppy home.
So many health problems are caused by feeding an inappropriate diet and by over-exercising vulnerable young puppies.
In the case of hip dysplasia, approximately 18% of cases are due to genetic influence, the remainder is due to good husbandry with regards to the correct rearing of the puppy.

Reputable breeders will make the new owners aware of these factors and give advice on how to best prevent any problems. This help and advice is usually part of the after-sales service and is there for the life of the dog, something else that is included in the higher price of a well-bred puppy.
Most BYB's are not even aware of the potential health problems, and are therefore unable to pass on any helpful information.

With regards to the cost of a Golden Retriever, I get annoyed with people moaning that a well bred puppy costs too much.
I wonder if the same care is taken when choosing a car or other major household purchse?
Most cars lose in depreciation every year more than even a top priced Golden Retriever and if you choose a puppy from a reputable breeder, you will probably expect at least 12 years love and companionship from a dog which calculates out to $100 per year, is this really so expensive?

In the meantime, when you get your new puppy you can continue to save the equivalent of $100 per year and when the time comes to add a new puppy to your home, you will have the funds to pay for it without too much pain.

messano

[happygold]

Just curious ...How would one define 'a backyard breeder'?
I have a rescue dog that I traced to a small breeding kennel.They 'love Goldens' but have no clearances,or contacts etc.They raise 'hunting/field' Goldens.
Say someone buys one great bitch from a responsible kennel and shows her in breed or obedience or the like,decides to breed her,has contract for pups, clearances etc for parents, but she is the only dog they have?Does that mean a backyard breeder?
I think that another important factor in buying a pup is breeder asking for the promise, in the contract ,you return it if you don't want it and offers guidance and advice about raising and training as well as what is mentioned in above posts.Knowledge of the breed and desire to improve breed standards and adherance to integrity can happen if someone owns one dog or ten.Don't ya think?

[pocono pride]

Hi messano, I was just wondering where you get your info as far as 18% is genetic for hip displasia? We had a female rottie who had severe displasia at 5 months and the surgeon who performed her tpo's said hip displasia is most definately genetic and he signed a letter for us stating this so we could get our money back from the breeder. Just curious.

[kencubilo]

I Know I am going to get burned for this but here goes.
First off if you spend $1800 for a Golden or $300 for a Golden You have no way to know what you are getting and can have mega health problems with either one, clearances and warrenties mean nothing. Serious problems can be carried in the genes of either parent back many generations. Go with your feelings, If the breeders give the pups plenty of love and keep them in clean quarters a plus. Check out the parents, I only get dogs from breeders who have both parents on site, check out the parents documentation make sure there is no in-breeding ( Yes I know some say in-breeding is okay as long as 1 or 2 generations are missed). Check with the Vet He can tell you health history of the parents (some Vets will not release this info without permission from the owners). Now I am not saying Goldens are not worth $1800 or more but my last two pups came from great lines, are beautiful dogs, easy to train and don't have a mean bone in their bodies. They cost me $375 each and mark my words they are going to become the best search and rescue dogs I have ever owned, But only after becoming the best family pets as well.

[CanadianGolden423]

happygold--

That would not be a BYB. To me, a BYB is one who breeds primarily to produce pet dogs or to make money, does not have health clearances, and does not show their dogs.

Hip dysplasia is definitely in part genetic; however, an obese dog is more likely to develop it than a lean one, given that the genes are equal (ie if one littermate is kept skinny and the other is allowed to be fat growing up, the fat one is more likely to be dysplastic.


I have experience with both BYBs and reputable ones.

My BYB dog is an amazing dog (she's my older one). She's a fantastic performance dog, high drive, many accomplishments, has made everything easy for me.

However. She has elbow dysplasia, cataracts, and seizures.
The cataracts have little to no effect on her whatsoever, according to the opthalmologist that diagnosed them.
She is on supplements for the ED. They're not too expensive--about $50 for a bottle that lasts around 4 months.
Her anti-seizure medication is about $10 a month--thank god it's inexpensive as well.

Luckily, her hips and heart are fine.


My younger dog is from a reputable breeder in Canada. She's very high drive, nice structure, a bit difficult to live with (because of her drive) but overall a nice dog. Tough to handle in agility because she is so wild--she'll be a better performance dog when she calms down. I would NOT recommend her to a family getting their first dog/first Golden.

She has all of her health clearances and is a very "sound" dog. Her life expectancy is around 14 years, considering her ancestors' lifespans.

My older dog's expectancy is only probably about 10, which is quite hard for me, bcause she is my first performance dog, and she's a special dog.

The younger dog, from the reputable breeder, was $800 US (I think it's about $900 Canadian). It is possible to find really good, healthy dogs for under $1000.



Samra

[messano]

<Hi messano, I was just wondering where you get your info as far as 18% is genetic for hip displasia? We had a female rottie who had severe displasia at 5 months and the surgeon who performed her tpo's said hip displasia is most definitely genetic and he signed a letter for us stating this so we could get our money back from the breeder. Just curious.>

This information is from the hip specialist in the UK, Dr Malcolm Willis. He has spent many years collecting data on hips in many different breeds and is an acknowledged expert on the subject.
His opinion is that hip dysplasia is a multi-factorial defect and genetic inheritance is just one of many possible influences.

We only breed from parents with a lower than breed average hip scores and they are also descendants of generations of low scoring dogs.
However, we cannot guarantee that any puppy will not have a high hip-score or develop dysplasia. To reduce the odds we give instructions for the correct diet and exercise of the puppy because as mentioned earlier, genetic propensity is only a small percentage of the risk and so many other factors can have an influence on the early development of good or bad hips.

In a perfect world, every dog would be hip scored and a much more accurate picture could be obtained. At the moment, from a litter of 10 puppies we are lucky if 2 of them are hip scored. Even if these 2 scores are good, the other 8 may have totally dysplasic hips and we will never know. Therefore future breeding decisions are made on flawed data.
This is one reason why hip dysplasia will be almost impossible to eradicate from the breed.

messano

[messano]

<Check out the parents, I only get dogs from breeders who have both parents on site, check out the parents documentation make sure there is no in-breeding ( Yes I know some say in-breeding is okay as long as 1 or 2 generations are missed)>

It is very unusual for a breeder to have both the parents on site. Most puppies are the result of a bitch being taken to mate with a dog that is the best match for both phenotype and genotype. This is unlikely to be the bitch owner's own dog.
In fact all Golden retrievers are in-bred, they all originated from the same 6 or so original dogs used to develop the breed.
There is much confusion between in-breeding (or incest breeding to give the full term) and line-breeding.
In breeding is the mating of very close relatives, ie Father-Daughter, Brother-Sister or more rarely Mother-Son. This is best left to the experts who know the history of the dogs for many generations and know the faults good and bad. This has had to be resorted to in several breeds over the years where there are few examples of the breed left and the gene-pool is therefore very restricted.

Line-breeding is the mating of more distantly related dogs, ie Uncle-Niece, Cousin-Cousin or one of the most successful matings, Grandfather-Granddaughter. Most conformation and working dogs are line-bred because it is desired to produce puppies with a predicted 'type'so that there is an odds on chance that they will exhibit the same desired characteristics, either looks or working ability, that their ancestors also possess.

It is actually impossible to get a Golden Retriever or in fact any pure bred dog that is not line-bred or in-bred for many generations. This is how the breeds were evolved and how type is maintained.
As it is not possible to register puppies from pure-bred dogs out crossed with another breed nowadays, the gene-pool can only get smaller over the coming years.

messano

[CanadianGolden423]

As a sidenote, my young dog is linebred on a very nice Golden (I believe the only, or at least the first, Golden ever to go BIS and HIT at an All-Breed show). This was considered a good thing by the breeders/experts I spoke to about her lineage.

[Touchka]

When I hear of these back-yard breeders I can't help wondering why they don't just do the job properly in the first place. If it is a matter of finance ie funding the aquisition of pedigree breeding stock, then maybe they should be doing something else for a living.
Having said that, as long as the stock involved have been screened for hip and eye disorders and that everything possible has been done to eliminate hereditary problems, there is perhaps a place for the responsible breeder supplying dogs at a slightly lower price.
The problem lies in recognising the reputable.
Me personally, I would not purchase an animal whose pedigree was non-tracable. In order to protect the attributes of the race and to reduce the number of puppy farms, we should all be very careful about where we aquire our puppies.

[Popeye77]

My relatives think I have absolutely lost my mind when they heard I paid $1100 for my puppy and a $168 to fly him here. I researched bloodlines for several months and consulted a vet that is involved in field trials. He is my fourth Golden. The first I had to put down at 3yrs. The second I had to put down with cancer at about 4yrs. I just put down the 3rd one last week at 11 yrs after spending almost $2000 in vet bills. The initial price of a dog with good responsible breeding is less than the price and heartbreak of a bargain dog. Just my .02
Mike

[Bittersweet]

If you are a responsible family that is looking for a nice pet, then I say go for it and buy from a BYB....the puppies are already here, they need to go somewhere, and I would much rather see puppies going to good family homes than going to some loser who wants to torture them etc...its like adopting unwanted children, once they are here on earth they need to go somewhere so why not have them live where its best for them? Yes byb's do produce alot of dogs with medical probs down the road, but there are also a lot of dogs that do just fine and make wonderful pets...the only way to stop byb's is to get them to stop BEFORE they produce a litter, not after the litter is already here...as for paying outrageously high prices for a pet dog, I agree its ridiculous...and I won't do it..we will pay 450.00 tops..that's what we paid for Inga, and I will not ever pay more than that for a pet..and she has good blood lines and came from very respectable byb's (if that's what you want to call them since the pups were born in the garage and their living space was the garage and back yard in a confined area..so I guess by definition they are byb's! That's just my opinion!

[beache]

Yes, we have decided to buy from this BYB. We have checked out the family (owner), the mother dog and the father dog. They are both over 2 years of age, and are just a beautiful healthy pair. The owners plan to breed them once more and then have them "fixed".
The 8 pups are a month old now and we are very excited to get our girl in 4 weeks! :485
The bottom line is we can't/won't pay $1,200-1,500 for a dog. I have to just go with my gut that this dog will be healthy and that we met this owner when we did for a reason.
I hope everyone here will support us as new Golden owners even if they may not agree with how we acquired our baby!

[Bittersweet]

Well Congratulations! I support you in your decision to take this puppy home and this board is full of wonderful advice for any questions you may have once you get the puppy home! The hardest part now is waiting another 4 weeks! LOL...GOTTA LUV A GOLDEN!!!

[Me and Gracie]

I was with Bittersweet in that "the puppies are already here, they need to go somewhere..." but... I cringed when I read that the owners plan to breed them once more :( I've always liked Goldens, but wouldn't consider 'buying' a dog when there are so many homeless dogs. My priorities aren't raising a puppy or showing a dog, or breeding dogs - I simply want a companion. My way of thinking may be a little risky in terms of health problems developing, but I'm willing to go there emotionally and financially to support my dog friends.

I'd urge anyone else who is considering a puppy from a BYB to check out the Golden Retriever rescue groups on-line (do a search and you'll find them all over the US). I happened to find my Golden at the local SPCA (full-bred dogs are often turned in by owners who can't care for them or don't want them anymore).

[beache]

Although I wish he wouldn't breed again either, I was impressed that his concern was for his dog. He said her health is the number one issue and if the vet says it's okay, he would do it one more time because so many of his friends and family are willing to take the puppies. Otherwise he won't breed her again. It showed me that he really cares about his dog, and that's what I was looking for.
I'm not really in any position to lecture him about what he should do with the dog, but I'm glad he takes good care of her.

[messano]

< He said her health is the number one issue and if the vet says it's okay, he would do it one more time because so many of his friends and family are willing to take the puppies.>

This is often used as a justification for breeding. It's strange how these same friends and family suddenly don't want a puppy when they arrive.

This then means that many homes must be found and because they have no reputation as breeders and no 'network' to sell the puppies, they become a problem to sell.

If the health of a bitch really is the number one issue, it is better to not breed her. There are so many things that can and do go wrong and where is the money coming from if the bitch has one puppy and needs a caesarean?
They could be hundreds or even thousands of dollars in debt.

messano

[Touchka]

Just out of interest, do you know how many litters this dog has had?

[CanadianGolden423]

I don't see how the health of his dog can be the #1 issue when he is about to produce a litter of puppies that could very well have hip/elbow dysplasia, cataracts, heart problems...shouldn't he care about the health of the puppies as well?

[deadmanh]

well, what does it take to get cerf, ofa hip and elbow, and heart checked out? not saying that it is possible especially because i dont konw what it takes but maybe the owner could do that for his dogs if you show him the way?

kinda making your BYB into a bit more respectable.....just an idea. but i do acknowledge that it may take a lot of effort and money.

there is a breeder here in southern california that sells pet quality (as opposed to show quality) pups for $800 as opposed to $1200 i will be paying. unfortunately i wont be getting my puppy from them only because their puppies will be ready to go home in late august. i wanted as much summer time as possible, so i wil be paying a higher price. super nice with me. dunno if people in cali wanted a well bred dog for that price but i thought id mention it.

(PS im not affilieated with them . just ask if you are interested, and i can give you their kennel name and number):415

[messano]

<kinda making your BYB into a bit more respectable.....just an idea. but i do acknowledge that it may take a lot of effort and money.>

Effort & money should never be a consideration when breeding dogs. If an owner is not willing or able to afford to submit their dog for all pertinent health tests, then they should not even think about breeding.

All it takes is a visit to the Vet to find out the required procedure to obtain the health clearances. If it seems to be too expensive to submit the dog for these tests, then do not breed.

If they cannot afford the health tests, what will happen when their bitch potentially needs a Cesarean at 02.00am on a Sunday morning? The cost of this could be almost equal to the value of a medium sized litter.
If the puppies were all to be lost, they could be facing a bill for a considerable sum of money.

I know that this forum is here to help and educate people, but it makes me so angry that there are still 'puppy-farmers' (this is a polite term) that still breed their dogs without the relevant health clearances.
While there are still people around who will even consider purchasing puppies from these untested dogs, the problem of hip dysplasia and eye problems will be perpetuated and do the breed a great disservice.

Testing breeding stock has nothing to do with making a BYB 'respectable', it is to reduce the chance of a 'bargain' puppy developing hereditary conditions that will potentially lead to a shortened life filled with pain.

By the way, there should benodifference in price between 'show' and 'pet' quality puppies. A 'pet' quality puppy is genetically similar to the 'show' quality puppy. They will have been raised in the same way, have the same parents and eaten the same food, so why the price difference?
The onlydifference between 'pet' & 'show' puppies should be the conformance to the breed standard.
What happens if the 'show' quality puppy grows up to be anything but show quality and the 'pet' quality matures into a beautiful representative of the breed? This happens all the time and is why it is so difficult to predict a top winner at such a young age.
Does the 'show' quality puppy owner then receive a refund if the dog 'goes off' as he/she matures?

All our puppies are sold as pets that have potential to show and are all sold for exactly the same price, whether they are male or female, 'pet' or 'show' quality.

messano

[deadmanh]

sorry messano, sounds like i pushed your buttons a bit. just, to let you know i was only trying to give him an option because he/ she seemed intent on buying this dog from a BYB. just trying to make a not so great situation a bit better.

while i agree with you, i feel that the ultimate goal (everyone getting a very well bred dog) is not yet attainable for everyone. professional breeders such as yourself incure significant time and costs in order to breed a better dog(s). those costs must be passed on to the buyer right? heck that is the kind of dog that i aim for myself.

"Effort & money should never be a consideration when breeding dogs. If an owner is not willing or able to afford to submit their dog for all pertinent health tests, then they should not even think about breeding."

although i agree with your statement, BYB will breed for a variety of reasons and money will always be a factor...i think.

but to turn this conversation one bit, what does it take to get all these clearances? i have no clue and when my dog gets older i would like to get them even though im not breeding. (unless people here would recommend otherwise.) what costs would there be and what other things will it take? hopefully the BYB (which i feel there will always be) can at least learn to be more responsible?


i myself have a LOT to learn, please show me the way.
Danny

EDIT* i re-read this. and i think i accidentally hijacked this thread a bit which is not my intention. i appologize.

[CanadianGolden423]

Getting clearances is really quite easy. I paid $265 to have my Golden's hips and elbow x-rays done by my vet (she's quite good at positioning in the OFA approved position--not all vets are good) and that included pre-op bloodwork. I then paid a $35 OFA fee and mailed the radiographs to OFA, who evaluated them and mailed me back clearance certificates within about a month.

For my dog's heart clearance, I went to a certified cardiologist at a health clinic that was being hosted (a place where many types of health screening are available at reduced cost) and paid $30 to have her heart examined, then a $20 OFA fee to send in the certificate and have an official OFA clearance registered/obtain an OFA clearance ID number and a certificate mailed.

I also got her eyes done at a clinic, for $20, and a $10 CERF see to mail the report in and get a CERF number.

So total I paid about $380 for all common clearances (and the radiographs were EXPENSIVE--at a health clinic they would have cost much less, around $100).


I don't think $400 is cost prohibitive if you're thinking of breeding--I don't plan to breed, but my Golden is a performance dog and I wanted to ensure she was healthy.

[Popeye77]

I hope everyone here will support us as new Golden owners even if they may not agree with how we acquired our baby!

You'll probably get all you need or possibly want. I am new to this board also but I am certain from the responses I have read that will not be an issue.
Mike

[deadmanh]

""I hope everyone here will support us as new Golden owners even if they may not agree with how we acquired our baby! ""

definately you got the support!!!!! and its not that anybody DISagree's with how you got your golden. rather, everyone wants whats 'best' (as they see it) for everyone else i think. <- my .02

[Touchka]

I'm still very confused about the term 'back yard breeder'.
There are professional breaders, who take great care about their breeding stock, love their dogs and sell at respectable prices.
There are professional breeders, who really don't care about their dogs, family lines etc and are just in it for a quick buck.
Then there are people like myself, who started with a puppy from good lines who had a major romance with a very carefully selected sire whose owners are competition judges.He was selected for size, hip dysplasia, eye prblems, temperament and working abilities. Both bitch and sire have 'A' for hips and have 'excellent' in their confirmation of breed.
My girl had 9 puppies of which I kept 3 and sold the others at a reaonable price. I didn't make a profit out of the sales and I carefully vetted all buyers. The were all registered, vaccinated, micro chipped and given regular vetinary check-ups. The were socialized, educated by myself and their mother (most important). In brief, they had nothing but the best.
Does this make me a 'back yard breeder?' If so, then I really don't know what is wrong with buying from a 'back yard breeder'.

[beache]

Touchka,
This dog is 2 1/2 years old and this is her first litter.
Your situation sounds just like the man I'm getting my pup from. Very healthy parents, backgrounds all checked out, etc.
We saw the pups yesterday again. Five weeks old! We spent 1 1/2 hours talking to the owner about food, training, shots, etc.
I think there is a difference between a responsible "backyard breeder" and someone who is running a "mini puppy mill" with no concern for the health of his female.
BTW, we did check out Golden rescue organizations. The New England group WON'T place a rescue in a home with children under 6, and we have a 5 year old.

[Touchka]

From what you have said, this chap sounds genuine. 2 1/2 is just the right age for a first litter. I would say "go for it". I wouldn't dream of putting down the responsible professionals as I think they do a brilliant job. I would however say that puppies who are brought up in a quiet, family environment often benefit from the kind of social experiences that are difficult to provide on large scale businesses.
I wish you the very best for you and your new pup.

Jill

[Dogrunner]

As someone who breeds her dogs, I would like to say that a "backyard breeder" is not necessarily an unprofessional breeder. If you have great dogs with good solid bloodlines, good hips, etc., why wouldn't you want to put those great genes out into the gene pool? My puppies are raised in the house, well socialized, have their shots, are wormed, get a complete examination from the vet (and a health certificate) and I guarantee my puppies for a year. I interview the prospective new parents and I'm picky about who gets a puppy. I also refuse to ship--if you want a puppy, you have to come pick him or her up. Shaker will be having a litter the end of June. I have a waiting list of 22 people who want one of her and Berr's babies because they are such great dogs. The important thing is that it's a responsible breeder with good quality dogs. You can buy a $1000 puppy from a kennel near here or you can buy one of mine for $400. And I refused to sell one of my precious babies from the last litter to the kennel owner. I don't sell to kennels either.

[all for goldens]

These are by no means my opinions and I am not trying for a debate only to answer the question. Many people believe that unless a dog can contribute something special to the breed he/she should not be bred. By this I mean has won titles for obedience, breed standard, hunting, agility, or certified for helping individuals, etc.....

This is a touchy issue on this site. As I said, I see both sides of the issue. The only thing I have a question on is have you had your dogs hips, elbows, eyes, heart, etc. OFA certified. I know there are many breeders that are recommended by the AKC whose dogs have not won titles, but they do an oustanding job producing healthy puppies and have their dogs certified. If so, then it sounds like you are a responsible breeder to me and have covered all of your bases.

Best of luck with your litter and regardless of your answer I am glad to hear those puppies will be going to good homes.

[Kato]

I can certainly see where titles and lineage are important for those that plan on showing their dogs, but we are getting a puppy solely as a pet.

Health of the parents: definitely worth ensuring
Titles: I don't care. I do not intend on showing my dog and do not see how this contributes or takes away from her place as a family pet.

Our last dog was a black lab mix. Certainly no titles ;) - In fact we got her from the Humane Society- and you couldn't have asked for a better family companion.

I can certainly see steering away from breeders who do not know what they are doing, but assuming a breeder is knowledgeable, has all of the appropriate checks and records then I can see when this would be fine.

I would leery of going to someone who is new, but I expect there are many "backyard breeders" who have been doing it for many years with much success.

[CanadianGolden]

See that's the thing, When you breed a litter of "show" dogs, you get some that are pet quality and not suitable for the showring. This is a responsible place to get a pet dog because these people breed to better the breed.

People who breed for "pets" are irresponsible because they produce puppies with no intent of improving the GR as a breed. If these breeders were obsolete, show breeders would be supported by the general public as a place to get a pet puppy, and the GR breed would improve immensly.

By show I mean both conformation and performance--not just the gross overdone breed dogs you sometimes see today.

[jacisgold]

I sincerely dont want to offend anyone here but just realize there are regions that it is extremely difficult to find responsible breeders that dont charge "an arm and leg" We have two kids in college. We just love the breed. Jaci our current golden is going blind so we want a companion for her to maybe help her out alittle bit. (Okay maybe it is just a really good excuse to get another wonderful furball :D ) But when searching for a good healthy pet, it is difficult to find one that dosent take a "chunk" out of the college fund. I think we have been really blessed recently that our vet just had a liter of goldens and is asking a resonable price for them. :029

[Kato]

See that's the thing, When you breed a litter of "show" dogs, you get some that are pet quality and not suitable for the showring. This is a responsible place to get a pet dog because these people breed to better the breed.

People who breed for "pets" are irresponsible because they produce puppies with no intent of improving the GR as a breed. If these breeders were obsolete, show breeders would be supported by the general public as a place to get a pet puppy, and the GR breed would improve immensly.

By show I mean both conformation and performance--not just the gross overdone breed dogs you sometimes see today.

The other side of that is the law of economics - supply and demand. We called around to about four or five different places to find somewhere that had GR puppies that were available. I can certainly see how getting a puppy from a show breeder is a great way to find a pet,but the supply can't keep up with demand, hence the need for breeders who breed for pets.

[esterris]

Answer yes. OK, I'm going to offend some people here, but as someone who has been in the dog fancy since 1978, I have to respond. I have a dog who is a new AKC champion and a dog who rescued from someone who started by "just breeding her pet quality dogs." Firstly, to the person who "breeds their dogs," I'm not hearing that their hips, elbows, eyes and heart have been OFA. Vet certification is not enough. The eye and heart problems seen in the breed today are almost as problematic as hip and elbow dysplasia. Since OFA cannot certify hips and elbows until two years of age, I don't see how a one year guarantee on health is ethical. Secondly, the AKC does not recommend breeders. The AKC merely lists referral sources though the breed's national parent club. It is impossible to police alot of "breeders." I know, because the woman that I rescued my one golden from is a member of the Golden Retriever Club of America. Now, our local breed club will not allow her to be a member, due to the information given to them that has been substantiated. This woman had bred my dog twice before the age of two. My dog suffered from Pyrometria (uterine infection) so the owners didn't want her anymore because she was useless for breeding. My dog has hip dysplasia (she was "certified" by the vet - this is what unethical breeders tell their potential puppy owners), a heart murmour, but is the most wonderful temperament I have seen in a Golden. She is wonderful, but I would have never bred her, despite her amazing temperament.

Thirdly, supply and demand, if that argument was true, we wouldn't have so many Goldens in rescue ranging from puppies to seniors. You don't have to want a "show" puppy to buy from someone who shows. Dog shows are meant as a way to evaluate potential breeding stock and to make sure that the standard for the breed stays true. Since about 1/3 of a litter may be "show quality," the rest of the litter who may be awesome animals, but have something that disqualfies them from the show potential category, it is the prudent way to buy from a reputable breeder who cares about the future of the breed and who knows any inherent genetic issues in the line. Most people really don't know what "good lines" are. They think if there is a champion or two back in the pedigree that they are "good lines." Good breeding is a breeding that is well thought out with sire and dam complimenting each other in conformation and pedigree. Never is it a breeding pair or dogs bred because "they have papers."

Sorry to upset anyone.

[kinseysmom]

Always. No exceptions. Why do we it sometimes? Ignorance. My first Golden was a gift and she was from a BYB and our Kinsey is from a real breeder. A breeder of show dogs actually and the difference between sweet precious Maddie (BYB) and Kinsey (show breeder) is unreal. Kinsey's genetics are just so evident. It's inbelievable.
Earlier in this thread someone said something about a family that is responsible should go ahead a buy from the backyard breeder. Oh my, what a bunch of hooey. A responsible family would do just the opposite and purchase their golden puppy from a real breeder. Messano and others here have clearly stated why and they are correct. Backyard breeding only contributes to problems with our Goldens. They don't help, at all. Even the best of the best backyard breeder is hurting the breed.
In short..........never ever buy from a BYB. It only hurts eveyone and all goldens.

[CanadianGolden]

jacisgold--

$800 for a dog from a good breeder (which is what I paid for my dog--good breeder--pedigree here: http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=76058 ) is cheap compared to the vet bills that result when your BYB dog has hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, a heart problem, cataracts, epilepsy...need I go on? (I HAD a dog from a BYB--amazing dog, took me to the highest levels of agility--but she had 3 of the 5 problems I just listed. Elbow dysplasia required expensive supplements and wraps to keep her sound, the epilepsy required a trip to the emergency vet, hospitalization, and a lifetime of phenobarbital. Fortunately her cataracts did not impair her vision, but if they had--you guessed it, surgery.)

Honestly, though, in addition to what I said above, if you cannot afford to pay $800 for a dog, you are not financially equipped for dog ownership. I don't consider that an arm and a leg, and as a poor college student, I personally could write a check for $800 right now. If your puppy gets something like parvo, which entails very costly treatment, you will be unable to pay for it. If your dog is hit by a car and breaks a leg, and needs surgery, you will not be able to pay for it. These are important things to look out for, and buying a puppy from a BYB is irresponsible.

Kato--

Yes there are waiting lists for good GR puppies, but isn't it worth it? Maybe if puppies were not so readily available from poor breeders, we wouldn't have so many uneducated and irresponsible owners breeding their pet quality dogs and perpetuating the problem.

[Dogrunner]

I not only have the parents certified, their grandparents were certified (or I wouldn't have bought the pups!). I don't think it's necessary to "improve" the breed each time you breed your dogs. I do think it's important to "maintain" breed standards. And I think, for those people who want a good pet and have no intention of showing their dog (not that some of these puppies wouldn't do well!), they should be able to purchase a good well-bred healthy puppy without taking out a second mortgage.

I have never bought from a kennel and outside of a bee-sting (she swallowed it, it stung the inside of her throat, and her throat swelled), I've never had to make any emergency vet visits, or for that matter, any trips to the vets except for annual check-ups and shots (and "well-mommy" visits if we're expecting :) The dogs eat less than my 16 year old son. They give me so much joy and love and brighten every day--I think everyone who needs a dog in their life should be able to afford one!

[CanadianGolden]

Yes but the reality is, not everyone CAN afford to care properly for a dog, and it's not fair to the dog to not have proper healthcare available because their owner "needed" a dog.

If we don't improve the breed, it will stay where it is, and at the moment, it's going downhill FAST due to the obscene number of BYBs who breed without proving their dogs' worth in the showring.


I don't care HOW wonderful your dog is--for your wonderful dog there are 10 dogs just as wonderful who also have titles and are proven as show dogs. THEY are the ones to breed.

[Kato]

I think this may be one of those "agree to disagree" threads.

I can agree that only breeding dogs that are proven healthy and without genetic defects would be beneficial to the breed.

I do not agree that this can only be proven by receiving ribbons in a ring based on the subjective opinions of judges.

I also agree that if you can't afford to care for your pet, then don't get one. (Our last dog was diabetic, requiring insulin injections twice a day and frequent checkups. We paid for all health services without blinking.)

[Jo Ellen]

I don't think I could afford to buy a titled or showring golden retriever. Does that mean I shouldn't own a golden retriever?

[CanadianGolden]

Many breeders take payment plans or are willing to make arrangements with buyers. They are also not profiting off the puppies they sell. I don't see how people can afford $400, or $500, for a BYB dog, but not $800 for a quality puppy. A show bred dog doesn't have to be more expensive than that, and if a BYB can sell for less, they're shirking on expenses somewhere.

[Kato]

Golden, I think the disconnect is that it sounds like you are inferring that only showdog litters are quality dogs and that litters from dogs without titles can't possibly be quality dogs.

I take the term "backyard breeder" as a negative term for breeders who breed out of their house, maybe as a sideline, very little attention to breeding healthy, disease free dogs who may know very little about the breed.

I don't think every breeder who doesn't breed for showing falls into that category.

[CanadianGolden]

I disagree (and yes, we might just have to agree to do that :)). A BYB is someone who does not breed to improve the breed. That could be someone with healthy dogs who does clearances and just doesn't show, or it could be someone who has no clearances and dogs with health problems. There are different levels of BYB. Still in my opinion the only appropriate place to get a dog (besides the shelter or a rescue) is from someone who shows their dogs and proves their breeding quality through titling them. What other means do we have to maintain the breed standard?

[jacisgold]

CanadianGolden,
I really do appreciate your point of view. I know there is a real problem with this wonderful breed and it is mostly due to those breeders who dont really care and the people who purchase them. Just to clarify though, although budget is tight with two kids in college, I have never neglected my goldens. I certainly would not buy one if I was not responsible enough to provide all the health care needed. Our vet has taken care of our dogs for total 14 years now (two different goldens) I dont think he would have offered us one of his liter if he didnt think we had provided proper care. The web site you gave me is very impressive however I live in Kansas. Before my vet had a liter, the lowest cost quality golden I could find was $900 and I am still not sure they were not upscale backyard breeder. I was in the process of checking them out more when I found out my vet was going to have a liter. The next cheapest was $1200. Fortunately, my vet is only going to charge $400. For me personally, the price difference is the difference in my son's first semester of books at college. Now I can enjoy helping my son out alittle more with college and watching my golden as he lays in pain after being hit by a car and i cant pay for proper care. Just kidding.

I have nothing but respect for everyone on here and I have been helped by the great knoweldge on the board. I sincerely do appreciate everyones own perspective.

[JsMom]

Hi there - I just noticed that this thread was started over 2 years ago. I wonder what happened to Beache and her Golden?

We bought from a BYB over 18 years ago and brought our puppy home at 5 1/2 weeks. Yes he had hip troubles that really didn't affect him until he was at least 12. Was he perfect? No - neither are we. But God - we loved him and he loved us and we had to say our goodbyes on his 17th birthday. If this BYB was still breeding dogs today I wouldn't hesitate to buy from her in a second. But she's not.

This time I'm working very hard to find a breeder with all of the health clearances - in fact I did find one - a perfect breeder! One technicality - she doesn't have any boy puppies. :( We were waiting for another boy and there were only girls born this time. (Ironically - her first litter was all boys!)

Everything for a reason - back to square one. The breed has many problems these days so you do need to do your best to be careful - but it's still a craps shoot. If it's going to be - it will - either way - good or bad. :o

[maryjean]

Hey Jacigold....what part of Kansas are you from? The reason I asked was that I'm from Salina also and heard about a vet in town who's goldie just had a litter....maybe 2-3 weeks ago?

mary jean

[Baylee Golden]

I am sorry to say that I was influenced by emotion at the time and I purchased a BYB dog. I love my pup dearly but with numerous temperament (and some health) problems I hate to think what became of the other 11 siblings!

That being said I have many solid reasons why I will only buy from a reputable breeder. Here is a real life situation that helps to delineate the difference:
A trainer of mine has been a long time breeder as well as one who shows her dogs in agility, rally, obedience and confirmation. She is very careful and concerned about the dogs she breeds and follows up on each and every one of them. She even teaches about breeding and how to pick a puppy for temperament, structure and health. Despite all her knowledge and years of experience she had a "bad" breeding where 2 years after the puppies were born epilepsy was showing up in several of the offspring. Because she follows up on all of her breedings she was able to determine the lineage and immediately contacted all of the owners of any of the offspring. In doing so she REQUIRED that all of the offspring be spayed or neutered so that the malady would not be continued. She even paid for the cost of the surgeries. In addition, she offered another puppy to those affected (from a different breeding) at no cost to them if they so desired. Her own dog that the breeding was from was also altered and kept to perform in the performance rings.
She did all this because of her desire to benefit the breed and she continues to breed quality dogs for both pet and show.
I doubt a BYB would take such care for the benefit of the breed. I know my own "breeder" has never called to inquire about my dog Baylee although I attempted to contact her in hopes of getting more information about her parents.

Most BYB are more interested in the money and have less knowledege about the ramifications of faulty breedings. I know my "breeder" chose the sire based on the color of its coat. I doubt that there was a lot of concern about its lineage that could lead to future problems with the breed.

A good friend of mine will not even consider a purebred dog due to the multiple health issues that are occurring from the limited gene pool. Generic dogs tend to be healthier.

In my area I doubt that a quality breeder will sell a dog for less than $1300 but then I recently paid that much to repair my car.
Next time I will make a different choice. Of course there are no guarantees when you choose a dog but I do think the Golden breed deserves our best attempts.

Just my thoughts.

[CanadianGolden]

Great post Baylee Golden! If people see why buying from a BYB is bad (and expensive!!!) we might convince them that a good puppy is the right investment. :)

[jacisgold]

Hi Maryjean. I also live in Salina. I would guess the vet you are referring to is the one we are getting our new puppy from. They will be 3 wks old this Sunday. We are hoping to get to see them tonight or this weekend for the first time. banana
I have never had more than one dog at a time before.(we currently have a 2yr old golden) You will have to give me tips. I saw from the vacum thread that you have 3 goldens.

Sorry to hear about your shepherd. It is so hard to lose a close friend. Do you have any dogs other than the three goldens?

[dssxxxx]

A lot of varying opinions.

My first 2 were BYB dogs. $300.00 a piece w/papers. At the time I couldn't have cared about pedigrees. The same as the $2500.00 I paid for my Murphy w/papers and had him neutered at 7 months.

But I regress.

My first were Rusty and Cinnamon (littermates). $300.00 per. Rusty lived to the ripe old age of 14 years and 11 months and 2 weeks. Cinnamon lived to 12 years 11 months and 2 weeks (had a stroke and died in our arms). She also had heartworm at a young age which could have attributed to the stroke.

All I can say is that these 2 very the very best of the breed when it came to temperment. Both very sweet. They were always said to be beutiful dogs and I have no regrets of ever purchasing them from a BYB.

In fact I have no regrets of getting any of the 7 goldens we have had since 1984.

[maryjean]

Jacigold.

At the moment we have 2 dogs. A 10 year goldenmix and a 1 1/2 year old golden. And yep....we are talking about the same puppies. I've been thinking of adding to our family again and talked with him a week or so ago. From what he said these were more cream and my hubby is a red lover!lol

Last year we lost a 16 year old golden, a 10 year old golden mix and a 15 year old german shepard....really tough year for us but we had some wonderful years with my babies and now I try to just remember those. At one point we did have 4....lol...crazy I know....well...and crazy that I am thinking of taking that total back up to 3. We have been so lucky with our furbabies over the years....the young ones learn so much from the older ones!

You will have to take pics and post them when you see your baby! lol...or maybe not....showing me a darling little puppy face that I know is only 10 or miles away....lol

mary jean

[jacisgold]

Maryjean,

Wow, you had alot of loss last year. I never had three losses in a short period like that, but when I lost my first golden I know it was terrible. I agree the best way to deal with it is to realize how fortunate we were to get to spend time with them. paw

We went to see the puppies today. ADORABLE. They have a liter of 11 and six are spoken for. They are going to be a medium cream I believe. You better talk to your hubby. :D

Well, we get to go pick him out in four weeks. Cant wait. I think it made it harder getting to see them. ;) I will try to post pictures at that time if I can figure it out. I am not the best on computer.

[esterris]

Reputable breeders are breeders who are interested in preserving and improving the breed. Reputable breeders can tell you any health/temperament issues within a dogs line generations back. Reputable breeders care about your dog if, for some reason, you need to return it. As far as price, the co-owner/co-breeder on my new champion charged me less than what I'm seeing on the posts for a pet qualty puppy. This is for a dog who is sired by one of the top producing GR sires and number 2 golden for several years _Ch. Sunbeam's Cruise Control. This breeder would take back Jackson, can recite all glitches in this line, how prepotent Cruiser is to what line, etc. She is active in the show ring, obedience, rescue, seeing eye dog and field. Cathie will tell you a breeder cares more about a great home than the money.

Here's the honest truth, good breeders are active with their breed because they are accountable to other people who are about the breed. These isolated BYB or mass producers do not have anyone knowledgeable enough to be accountable. PERIOD.

On the other hand, when my BYB (they are backyard anymore - just mass produced) dog showed up with hip dysplasis, she wanted nothing more to do with me. She has even falsified my dogs ******* so that none of her dogs are traceable back to Kenya. It makes me sick.

In the 25+ years, I have been involved in dogs, I bred one litter of Irish pups. I took the time to show and finish my dog and bred to a dog that I spent alot of time watching in the ring and considering from a pedigree, conformation, temperament and health perspective. I had three puppies. Two of which went on to get their championships and I am watching their grandchildren in the ring. One of which, I sold on a spay/neuter contract. My new champion Jackson, well bred, and drop dead gorgeous in conformation, heath and temperament probably won't be bred, because I wasn't crazy about his mother. Quite honestly, I don't want to deal with the boy dog thing about they have been bred. I'm proud he finished, but really all I want now is my pet.

Breeding a dog because "she's soooo pretty," "I want one just like her," "I heard breeding is good for them." "All of my friends want one just like her," "my vet says its OK," and "my children need to see the miracle of birth are all bad reasons to have a litter of puppies." Have your children see the miracle of death, when one of the puppies doesn't make it and you have to euthanize or see it die." (Been there - done that).

Bottom line: Buy from the people who really want the best for our breed.

Again, sorry to upset anyone. :reddogx

[Brandy and Charlie's Mom]

I have no doubt that many dogs from BYBs are wonderful! But it's not just the quality of the dog that should be considered. It's also the care with which they sell/place their puppies.

Many BYBs sell to anyone who has the money to pay them. Many of us have even seen people with dogs for sale along the side of the road.

Unfortunately, these people don't do a lot of screening of potential owners. And when the dogs get too big/too much to handle etc. the unlucky ones wind up abandoned, dumped at shelters or handed off to rescue groups.

In supporting reputable breeders, or even hobby breeders, we also support the idea that pet overpopulation is everyone's problem. We want to reduce the number of unwanted pets, the millions of euthanized pets. And one big way to do that is to ensure that people who buy dogs understand and are prepared for what they are getting into: a long-term commitment that requires time, love and sometimes large sums of money.

Reputable breeders care about educating/screening potential owners. And most will require the dogs to be returned to them for re-homing if necessary.

[brugs]

Answer yes. OK, I'm going to offend some people here, but as someone who has been in the dog fancy since 1978, I have to respond. I have a dog who is a new AKC champion and a dog who rescued from someone who started by "just breeding her pet quality dogs." Firstly, to the person who "breeds their dogs," I'm not hearing that their hips, elbows, eyes and heart have been OFA. Vet certification is not enough. The eye and heart problems seen in the breed today are almost as problematic as hip and elbow dysplasia. Since OFA cannot certify hips and elbows until two years of age, I don't see how a one year guarantee on health is ethical. Secondly, the AKC does not recommend breeders. The AKC merely lists referral sources though the breed's national parent club. It is impossible to police alot of "breeders." I know, because the woman that I rescued my one golden from is a member of the Golden Retriever Club of America. Now, our local breed club will not allow her to be a member, due to the information given to them that has been substantiated. This woman had bred my dog twice before the age of two. My dog suffered from Pyrometria (uterine infection) so the owners didn't want her anymore because she was useless for breeding. My dog has hip dysplasia (she was "certified" by the vet - this is what unethical breeders tell their potential puppy owners), a heart murmour, but is the most wonderful temperament I have seen in a Golden. She is wonderful, but I would have never bred her, despite her amazing temperament.

Thirdly, supply and demand, if that argument was true, we wouldn't have so many Goldens in rescue ranging from puppies to seniors. You don't have to want a "show" puppy to buy from someone who shows. Dog shows are meant as a way to evaluate potential breeding stock and to make sure that the standard for the breed stays true. Since about 1/3 of a litter may be "show quality," the rest of the litter who may be awesome animals, but have something that disqualfies them from the show potential category, it is the prudent way to buy from a reputable breeder who cares about the future of the breed and who knows any inherent genetic issues in the line. Most people really don't know what "good lines" are. They think if there is a champion or two back in the pedigree that they are "good lines." Good breeding is a breeding that is well thought out with sire and dam complimenting each other in conformation and pedigree. Never is it a breeding pair or dogs bred because "they have papers."

Sorry to upset anyone.
What is said here is what I heard all my life while growing up. My grand parents raised bulldogs.
They had champions. The dogs that weren't show quality were the dogs that sold cheaper. Nothing wrong with them just not show quality. Meaning a dog good for people like me that aren't going to show. It's a pet.

[Vickie]

Hi all
I just saw this post and thought I'd add a little info here to help.(Possibly)
I believe you can get good or bad,healthy or unhealthy dogs from kennels,breeders or from anywhere.
Home work is the best preventative that I have found.
I have seen (professional) breeders that had way to many dogs and litters and socalization usually takes a back seat.
A good healthy socially sound puppy is much more important to me than conformation,paying big bucks,etc(Unless one wants to show or breed)
We got our Meisha from a wonderful woman who has a beautiful pair and they are beyond well loved.The father has the sweetest disposition I have ever seen in a golden and that's what got my attention for a puppy. Both parents are healthy and the lines carry great hips ,etc so no worry there.
The pups were raised in the house around children(which bigger kennels usually can't do)and we got to see and enjoy our pup from 2 weeks until we got her.All the attention went to that litter as there wasn't any competition from other litters.
We also have the same vet and that has turned out to be fabulous as he has known our pup from before birth.

[Tina9544]

I would like to say that there is a difference between shelling out $1500 cash for a puppy and being able to come up with money in an emergency situation. Just because you cant afford to pay that kind of money for a dog, which many middle class families cannot, doesnt mean you are not capable of caring for the dog. If you have a real emergency - dog breaks a leg and needs surgery- you may be able to borrow money or put it on a credit card or take it out of savings. Its a different thing.
And the difference I am finding here, is that it is not a choice between a $400 BYB dog or a $800 reputable breeder dog, but more like $400 vs $1500 - $2000.

[Friends of Zoe]

Sorry (or maybe not) to renew this thread after over a year, but I just wanted to tell our story.

We wanted to get our puppy from a high quality breeder, but none would sell to us. We just graduated college in May, moved a week later to an apartment in the city, and brought our pup home two weeks after that. I have spent the summer home with her before I begin grad school, and my boyfriend works full time (as an actuary, making a salary you would not believe right out of college!).

The higher quality show breeders I talked to did not want to sell a pup to 21-year-olds, first time dog owners, urban dwellers, or people without a fenced in yard. It didn't matter that we had done our research, knew exactly what we were getting into, and were going to be very responsible. My point was that not all 21-year-olds just party all the time; we are more responsible with our dogs than many older adults I know. True, neither of us have owned dogs before, but that's because our parents wouldn't let us and a major reason we wanted to get a dog as soon as we could. We also had already contacted a trainer and planned to take obediance classes to learn how to properly train and care for a dog. As for the city/yard, we know the exercise requirement for goldens and actually have to interact with her (walks, trips to fenced in off leash parks, etc) while she gets her exercise. I was angry that breeders would sell to someone who might just leave the dog tied up or in the backyard all day because they have a yard, but would assume that becuase we live in an apartment that we wouldn't get her any exercise.

Not only this, but we could not get a dog through rescue groups for similar reasons. We probably could have gotten a humane society dog, but we wanted a golden retriever! And everywhere we turned, the responsible alternatives wouldn't even consider us. Perhaps this should have been a warning to us that we weren't fit to be golden owners, but if you asked Zoe, I bet she would disagree.

In the end, we were able to purchase Zoe from a fairly responsible BYB (had the clearances, will take back the dogs with problems, etc). It was not ideal, but she was the only breeder we could find who would consider us. Zoe has had four bouts of worms/parasites, and we are a little bit upset that the breeder obviously bred an unhealthy mother (with giardia that was passed on to pups) and did not properly deworm the mom or pups, but we are grateful that Zoe has the best temperment imaginable (just the friendliest dog in the world). We may have to spend more on medical bills, but hopefully she has no more serious issues than the worms.
We are planning to add a second dog, probably a golden, once Zoe is more than a year old. This time, we are hoping that higher quality breeders and rescue organizations will consider us, as they can see how well we have raised Zoe and how healthy and happy she is.

So my point is that it is not always possible to get a dog from a responsible breeder, because they can be too insistent that the dogs go to situations that they believe are ideal (fenced in yard, etc.), without considering the possiblity that the dogs could be perfectly happy elsewhere. Personally, I would never want a dog not raised in the city, and I don't think Zoe would be very happy in the suburbs. She loves the sights and sounds of the city, and especially loves that we always pass tons of people (who are willing to give her belly rubs!) on her walks. She would not be happy running around a backyard with just her family.

We are grateful that we found a BYB willing to give us a chance. My hope now is that more responsible breeders will recognize that we are good dog owners and will allow us to purchase a pup from them when we are ready to add a second dog.

[Seamus' Mom]

Friends of Zoe...I think you make a good point, and one that is often overlooked. When I decided to go through Rescue this last time, I was surprised by how thorough they were and almost felt they were being a bit ridiculous. I had previously owned goldens and had tons of references, etc. And, I eventually got approved, but it wasn't easy. I remember feeling it would have been much easier to adopt a human baby.

But, now that I'm on their email lists, I see how many times they see the really bad sides of dog ownership...people who promise they're going to do all the stuff you are doing, but then don't. I'm sure they (as well as the reputable hobby breeders) get a little jaded and paranoid about people they don't know personally and it's hard to give the benefit of the doubt after witnessing so many bad things happen to good dogs. I'm sure that when you get your next dog, the rescues or hobby breeders will have more "evidence" to go on that bears out what a good job you're doing with Zoe and they'll be more willing to work with you. Good luck!

It sounds like you did your homework and checked out your BYB pretty well anyway. The fact that they had clearances sounds like they were fairly responsible about their breeding. I suspect a lot of people who went through the struggles you did, might do something a lot worse...but so much easier, and just buy from a pet store. That's a shame, because they tried to do the right thing, but in end, end up supporting a puppy mill out of frustration.

I'm glad you brought this up...I think it happens more than we think.

[CaynCher]

Friends of Zoe,
I understand how you feel. When I was growing up, we purchased many pups from the so-called BYB. They didn't show their dogs but did guarantee pup to be healthy & would stand behind their pups. Most of them lived to 16 or l7 yrs. old with no major health problems for my parents. So I have had experience with both types of breeders. Just because you had to purchase Zoe from a BYB doesn't mean that you will have more problems than others who have gone the other route. They can have problems too.

In our area, when I inquired about adopting, the rescue groups also require a fenced yard. We do not have fenced yards at either of our houses. Nor do we plan to fence.
So I forgot about the rescues & went to the reputable breeder for a pup.
You have to do what you have to do. It may be turn out to be a blessing in the end.


:dogbark :reddogx

[Acamarrr]

When I was growing up, we purchased many pups from the so-called BYB.

So did we. But I was "growing up" thirty years ago (I'm now 39), or about six to ten dog generations ago! That far back (generationally speaking), you could take chances and not end up with a bunch of FrankenPuppies. Not so anymore -- our breed has been, or is rapidly approaching, overbreeding. There are lines that are simply horrendous, others that are merely questionable, but very few (none?) that are pristine.

While I believe in the power of "when I was your age" stories, it just doesn't hold true in dog breeding. The animals being bred back then have been dead for decades -- it's the genetic equivalent of saying that you are or I am just like our Great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather. In fact, in my family tree, that ancestor nine generations behind me was born in 1698.

[CaynCher]

Acamarr,

Yes, I agree with you concerning today's dogs. If you read all of my post, you will notice I mentioned that I purchased my Goldens from reputable breeders unlike the choice my parents made. I do not support the unethical with my $$$$$$.

Since Friends of Zoe was not acceptable to the rescue group to adopt a Golden, which may have very well been a BYB pup anyway, & they have already purchased a BYB breeder pup, the DEED is DONE. Right or wrong, agree or disagree, I want to wish them the best with their new pup, Zoe. In the furture, they may become acceptable for other routes of obtaining a Golden if that is their choice.

:dogbark :reddogx

[Acamarrr]

Indeed, the deed is done, but these threads are frequently resurrected by new members. I don't think reiterating the problems of BYB is a waste of time.

[Friends of Zoe]

Well, I guess I knew that some people would still disagree with the decision I made in getting my golden. I resurrected this thread to bring up an issue that I think is very important: the catch-22 of aquiring a golden. Sure, it's important that people only buy through responsible breeders or go through rescue groups, but those breeders and groups are often so exclusive in who they will let acquire a golden that it is not possible to use one of these routes. I did not grow up with parents who had goldens, nor do I have any friends or family who could direct me to a breeder (my aunt/uncle actually did put me in touch with the breeder they had purchased their golden from, but she was no longer breeding). Add to this the fact that I do not have a fenced-in yard, and no one wanted to even listen to me defend myself.

The BYB I purchased Zoe from was the best option I could find, since I was also limited in the time frame of getting a puppy (I wanted to bring the pup home so that I would have as long as possible home every day with her before graduate school started...I think a lot of people have a certain time frame when they need to bring their dog home in order to be home with it, so I don't think this was an outrageous demand). I found a breeder in my relative area who had clearances for both the sire/dam, home raised the puppies, and did not ship puppies (insisted upon meeting the potential owners at her home). I realize that she does not show her dogs and is breeding to produce good family pets, not AKC champions. I was uncomfortable with this purchase (if I wasn't, I would not have made this post in the first place) but I could not get a golden through any better means.

I did not mean for my story to encourage people to use BYBs, but rather to illuminate a problem with the exclusivity of "responsible" means of acquiring a golden. I hope that with the responsible ownership I provide for my Zoe, I will be able to meet the rigorous selection demands of a more responsible source when I someday get another golden (which I do plan to do). However, since I do not have a fenced yard (and probably never will), I highly doubt that I will be able to do much better the second time around.

Some people who use this site are breeders, work for rescue, or are close with others who do. My hope is that responsible sources will begin to understand the frustration that their refusals to even discuss the issue with potential buyers causes to people who might be fabulous golden owners but don't fit the standard mold of golden owner (which I would assume is 30-something, married, parent of 2 or 3, living in a nice house on 3 acres with a white picket fence).

I apologize for getting defensive, but saying "the deed is done" and reiterating what I did wrong is incredibly frustrating, since I tried and really wanted to do everything right, but just could not. Maybe the breeders and rescues are right and I really am not fit to be a golden owner. But I'm going to do the best I can with my Zoe.

[Cham]

MA is a hard state to adopt a golden in. Unfortunately we do not have the wide open spaces of other states. We are for the most part an urban area, and even very large fenced in areas are for the most part rare.I'm in the suburbs, not in the city like Zoe's mom and I sincerely doubt that most yards in my town would qualify.

I too looked into adopting a rescue, but like Zoe's parents, could not fit the criteria set by the Yankee Golden etc. Thankfully I had friends who have Goldens, and who were able to point me towards a wonderful breeder, who was more interested in the interaction of the adoptive parents and the dogs themselves, then in how much land the owners had. As long as the dog was treated in as special a manner as they deserved, and were well cared for and loved, that is all my breeder cared about. I was fortunate that Hailey came from a breeder who did care about the breed,had good bloodlines and she came with AKC papers, with unlimited registration, she gave us a 2 year health guarantee, along with the names of vets and the name of the sire's vet, who will provide any and all necessary care covered by the warranty.

Some would consider Sue a backyard breeder, because she doesn't show her dogs, the owner of the sire does and has first pick of all litters if interested. When I think of back yard breeders, I think of filthy gross yards and barns, with dogs crammed into every possible space. I sincerely doubt that Zoe's parents would never become involved with such a situation. Besides it seems like MA is a hotbed of backyard breeders for Pitbulls and such.
I'm sorry if this doesn't make much sense, but I think some slack needs to be cut for those owners who cannot thru no fault of their own buy a Golden from a "Name" breeder or kennel, or rescue one.

[Seamus' Mom]

When I think of back yard breeders, I think of filthy gross yards and barns, with dogs crammed into every possible space. I sincerely doubt that Zoe's parents would never become involved with such a situation. Besides it seems like MA is a hotbed of backyard breeders for Pitbulls and such.

Your description (above) of a BYB sounds more like a Puppy Mill to me.

My understanding of a BYB is a breeder whose primary interest is not in studying and trying to produce dogs that best conform to the breed standard (and checking their results by showing dogs...i.e., a serious hobby breeder), but rather to raise/sell companion puppies. I think there are some better BYBs who probably truly care about their breed and want to share it with others. They may even take the extra steps and get the health clearances done and that kind of stuff. But, there are also bad BYBs who are just in it for the money...even though they may love their own dogs/puppies and treat them well, but not really focus on proper breeding practices or genetic factors.

I do kind of have a problem with a BYB selling a dog with AKC Unlimited Registration papers...that just allows anyone to start breeding indiscriminately, even if they don't know or care about what they're doing. So, even if you had a good BYB who did some of the right things, they may be enabling others to be less vigilant. That's why serious hobby breeders usually will only sell companion puppies with Limited AKC papers.

[Cham]

Your description (above) of a BYB sounds more like a Puppy Mill to me.


I know and I suspect that is the defination that most people use. Man in the street etc.

The whole problem with this discussion, is this not a Utopian Society. In a Utopian society, then all we would have to do is for everyone not to buy from puppy mills and back yard breeder and the problem would just disappear. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that, if we didn't have caring people to buy these pups, then the shelters would be overloaded, no kill shelters would be a thing of the past , etc. There will always be unethical breeders, just as there will always be bad evil people, and I believe it's better to have someone take these poor innocent pups taken in, rather than have then end up like Michael Vicks dogs, or as experimental dogs.

[jacisgold]

I believe everyone has their own set of circumstances. I enjoy hearing everyones opinion on all different issues on this site and have learned alot----but in the end--- I make my decisions based on the best information I have at the time and apply it to my own personal circumstances.

One thing I think we all have in common on this site is our love for Golden Retrievers. :reddogx :029

[Friends of Zoe]

Thanks for understanding, those who have posted. I might also add that Mass. shelters do not accept dogs from out of state (and many out of state shelters do not let their dogs go to another state). So there are not all that many dogs in Mass. shelters, comparatively. Also, the only golden rescue around here is Yankee, which I could not adopt through. I might have been able to adopt from a different shelter, but I did not want a dog shipped to me as it was important that I got to meet the dog and select the temperment I wanted.

I know we all just want what's best for goldens, and though she may not have come from the perfect place, Zoe is perfect for me.

[Cham]

I know we all just want what's best for goldens, and though she may not have come from the perfect place, Zoe is perfect for me.

And that is what is most important, isn't it? I think we all agree that Goldens are best, and we all think our dogs are perfect and the most beautiful pups around. :reddogx :dogbark :doggface :grwag

[CaynCher]

I did not want a dog shipped to me as it was important that I got to meet the dog and select the temperment I wanted.



***** I feel the same way concerning the above. No buying without seeing the pups first for me either. This is a personal decision every one must make of course.




though she may not have come from the perfect place, Zoe is perfect for me.


******You have a right to make your own choice in this matter. If she is perfect for you, that was the right choice for you. Best of luck with Zoe!

:dogbark :reddogx

[Kharas]

My father used to raise golden retriever pups. He had a male from champion lines that he had purchased through a very reputable breeder that showed her dogs. He had a friend that had a female from another very reputable breeder that was also from champion lines. So is he destroying the breed and supplying people with "Frankenpuppies" just because he did not choose to show his male even though both dogs were show caliber and came from the same reputable breeders that people say we must get the dogs from? I think there are always exceptions to the rule.

[CanadianGolden]

It's really not ideal to not show the dogs. Why weren't they shown? Were they really good enough to have gotten Championships? Were they sold with a breeding allowance from their breeders? Did they complement each other well enough to be a good breeding match? These are all things that a good breeder asks, that someone who doesn't show rarely asks.

[Dragon Roll]

Hello All,

I'm new to the board and new to GR's (but, not to dogs, in general). We are adopting our male puppy from a reputable local breeder. We are paying $1,000 for our puppy, including the $500 deposit. I have 2 comments to make...

Only someone serious about owning a dog would pay this much. With few exceptions, to pay this much money means one is ready to take on a permanent committment. For us, it wasn't a decision that was made in haste. This is one of the many reasons why reputable breeders charge so much.

Secondly, I would like to mention the "low risk" factor. I have 4 kids and wanted to ensure that a dog would not be an unpredictable threat to our 2 youngest (we have other animals and my children are taught to be gentle and respectful). If we went with a BYB there would be a judgment risk to what sort of temperament and intelligence the dog would have.

Now, there is no absolute guarantee with a reputable breeder either, but, there is a much greater chance that the dog will be of excellent temperament and intelligence. This is particularly true for breeders that have been breeding for 10-20 + years and are clear about the puppy's parentage. In many cases, they are so confident they give the new owners a guarantee (or you return the dog). That's not a promise a BYB can give you.

Our puppy will be born in 2 weeks. Yay!! And, over the next 8 weeks we can visit him and watch him grow. I look forward to sharing our pictures with you and experiences. I have enjoyed looking at all your beautiful Goldens and learning soooo much from this board.