Nutro Adult for a puppy

[Bethoven]

I use Nutro Natural Choice for Beto, between today and tomorrow I will need buy a new bag for him, in the morning I called several pet shops to ask for a new bag but none of them do have Natural Choice Large Breed Puppy, the do have only for adult and I will wait for about two weeks for the puppy formula to arrive here.

They say I can use the Adult formula with my puppy.

Beto is 6 month old.

What can I do??? :054

[Brandy and Charlie's Mom]

I don't know how the two formulas compare. If I were in your position, I'd buy a bag just big enough to get me through until the LBP comes in.

Then I would start the transition today (mixing the two) so that it wasn't abrupt. Then when the LBP came in, I'd transition him back.

[SteveR]

6 months is a very good age to do a switchover from puppy food to adult food. If your switching over between food lines, i.e. Nutro Natural LBP to Nutro Natural adult you wouldn't even have to wean him over.

[diiorio]

The adult food doesn't have enough calorie content for the pup, his body is still growing in other ways.

Cehck other stores. Also concider switching to the Nutro Natural Ultra (little more pricey). I may switch the next bad around.

You should keep him on the puppy food for anotehr 6 months. WHen he reaches 12 then concider switching to adult. Especially if he is active.

See update about tests conducted on displatic parrents and puppy formula's

[CanadianGolden]

It's actually not a good idea for Goldens to be on puppy food past 3 months. The higher calorie and fat content often causes them to grow too fast, and you want slow growth to avoid bone and joint damage. You can keep him on adult food now.

[diiorio]

Edited because of double post.......

Follow recommended feedings.... 3 months is not a safe cut off period if you are on proper diets.

[diiorio]

3 months is far to young to stop, they are still growing and demand more calories then adult foods. IF weight is a concern then you can then cut back, however even 6 months is far to young. Maturation is still going on. Bone density is also changing.

Stick with the program that is researched and proven. THere is a reason the feedings are recommended the way they are. Goldens shoudl be on modified large breed puppy formula's, but still on puppy formula's. If testing indicated 3 months was a good time to change, that would be the standard. There has been over 60 years of indepth study on that.

Stick with the Large breed formula reducign the amoutn as the pup matures. Switch to adult between 10-12 months (17 is a littlr to far since the metabolism drops then).

[SteveR]

My veterinarian is pretty up to date on the nutrition and feeding of large breed dogs having been a golden owner. When I got Sinbad he insisted on a large breed puppy formula until at least 6 months OR a switch over to adult food at 3 months if I chose not to go the large breed puppy route. (I had planned on giving him Wellness puppy formula which is why he said to switch at 3 if I was going to use Wellness).

[CanadianGolden]

diiorio--

Where is your research that tells me it is unsafe to start feeding adult food at 3 months? Could you post links to some studies in reputable, peer reviewed journals? I know many people who have done this, with Goldens and other breeds, and I myself have done this. I have experienced absolutely no problems, unless you consider healthy weight and slow, even growth to be a problem. I am also feeding what I'm sure you'd consider to be a proper diet--Wellness is my food of choice. Personally, I don't consider Nutro, even Nutro Natural Ultra, to be a proper diet. I don't feel it has enough protein sources in the top five ingredients, especially for its cost.

[diiorio]

Check the AVMA and about 3,000 research documents from 120 food producers in various countries. Better yet call the AVMA and ask for the information, call the Food companies and ask for reports. You won't find it all in detail on the internet, and I hope that is not where you get your info from.

No offense but opinions without backing do more harm. Keep in mind I went to school 4 years to get where I am. I spent 3 more years with a Veterinary specialist for Internal Medicine. An additional 3 years with pharmaceutical companies and food research. 6 Years in a major Veterinary Hospital. I got the credentials. I’m not a person who works in a kennel at a vet clinic, or helps draw up vaccines and titles themselves a Veterinary Technician.

Please tell me how many years experience in the field you have to back the personal theory, 3 months is a good time to stop puppy food while all the researchers, food makers state otherwise. People should following the recommended guidelines set on a food, not someone’s inexperienced opinion.

Please stop giving false information. I know this seemed harsh. Yet I have been working with many more animals then most. I’ve seen issues with puppies, and whelping bitches. Many years of seeing thousands of cases and dog’s is good experience in it. There are many diets and changes to feeding yearly. Research is an ever growing thing. I have to go for another 12 weeks of diet study this summer (Thanks to IVD). To give you a clue. I see between 80-120 cases a week. Multiply that by 4 weeks and 12 months.

Show me where it says 3 months is a good time to stop. Look on any bag of dog food and request the case studies from a reputable food company of your choice and I will show you otherwise.

[diiorio]

On diets. Wellness is a good diet I agree, and have concidered switching myself, however I include my own addtions to dry food, so I have to look at the fact I already give several of the incredients and if reports show they have sufficient levels in their formula I will switch.

Nutro Ultra is also a godo food and contains some key elements Wellness lacks (vice versa). You are getting good supply of the base proteins in both, if you understand diet you wouldn't question that.

On the puppy growth issues in alrge breeds, it is still a theory without enough studies backing it. Even dog's on reduced protien diets can get hip displasia if they are prone to it in their lines. However not havign enough of the correct levels can cause growth issues as well, you don't wnat your pup starved of needed buildign blocks.

What I do liek abotu Wellness is the combination of Omega 3 and 6. However it needs to be balanced correctly to work properly. Omega 3's are known more for the anti-inflammatory abilities in older dog's.

Adult foods lack needed compounds for a maturing puppy at 3 months. It not as simpel as switching to an adult food. Unless you are feedign a protien miimal of 30% or higher, there will nto be a big change i nthe way the body absorbs it. Look at the Nutro large breed formula compounds and Wellness adult, and you will see the reason behind it.

[CanadianGolden]

Right, your education is funded by dog food companies. They are in this business to make money, not to help dogs. Why do you think so many vets recommend Science Diet? Because these are the people who teach vets about food. I would never rely on information from a biased source. Nowhere in the JAVMA have I ever seen an article that stated it was unhealthy to feed adult food at 3 months. Food companies are rarely a good place to get information on diet. Further, following recommended guidelines about feeding amounts on dog food bags leads to overweight dogs because the amounts are almost always overestimates, so why should someone follow their guidelines about anything else? I am basing my opinion on ten years' experience with dogs, five years showing experience, and on the opinions of my mentors, who have spent between fifteen and thirty years in the world of dogs and dog shows.

Exactly which "issues" have you seen with puppies caused by feeding adult food?


I'm afraid I don't understand the entire reasoning behind using puppy food until 17 months of age simply by reading ingredients for Wellness and Nutro LB puppy. Maybe I'm just not educated enough to understand that. Could you explain it?

[Brandy and Charlie's Mom]

[QUOTE=diiorio]No offense but opinions without backing do more harm. Keep in mind I went to school 4 years to get where I am. I spent 3 more years with a Veterinary specialist for Internal Medicine. An additional 3 years with pharmaceutical companies and food research. 6 Years in a major Veterinary Hospital. I got the credentials. I’m not a person who works in a kennel at a vet clinic, or helps draw up vaccines and titles themselves a Veterinary Technician.

Diiorio -- Your comments about credentials are misleading and rude. Most states require that licensed and certified veterinary technicians complete a minimum of a 2-year program and pass a state exam. In other states, it's a four-year degreed program. There are only a couple of states that don't require this kind of intensive education to become a vet tech.

In other words, they don't just "title themselves" veterinary technicians unless they were perhaps grandfathered in. And in that case, they've been in the profession a long time and have considerable experience.

They are also required to undergo a specific number of hours in continuing education. Most experienced vet techs who work in vet offices take their profession very seriously, and are an excellent source of information and advice.

You may have extensive experience, but I see no reason to slam others to try to make yourself look good. (And no, I'm not a vet tech.)

[CanadianGolden]

Actually diiorio, if you could provide just one reference, not funded by a dog food company, that supports your assertions, I would be very interested to see it. Thanks!

[diiorio]

Canadian Golden you don't seem to understand how Vet's work. We do not promote one diet over another, we promote what works. It hurts people that care and do this work becuase they love animals. There are some quack Doctors out there. Yet many Vet's and Techs care and stride for better Veterinary care.

All Vets’ promote Hills? You are incorrect on that part. We prefer other diets over hills (and do not recommend the puppy food over any other or force any diet down any owners throat, the diet does not bring in revenue to the hospital. We do not sale puppy foods, only prescription diets for specific cases, and hardly at a huge profit). We base prescription diets on what we see work best, and has the best results. To tell you the truth Hills is at the bottom of the list in certain areas. R/D has to much fiber, and output's far to much waste, and is also slower for weight reduction. We lean Towards EUK Restricted Calorie or IVD's Diet based on results and ingredients. There are multiple diets used based on other conditions as well. Some animals may have other underlying issues as well and a diet that can help both with weight and that issue will be prescribed. There is alot of back feed from the companies to vet's and vet's to the company. We are the first to comaplin as well, or voice an opinion or dislike.

I doubt you have access to JAVMA, and if you do, login and do a search on Large Breed Recommended feedings and tell me what you find. Please don't post it here , since if you are a RVT, LVT, or A Veterinarian, you will know you can not republish outside Javma.You can quote reserach foudn but it msut be reworded or quotes given the resource link and articel ID. Look it up for your own knowledge and correction. Check close also, I was part of 4 articles. Will you understand the results, tables, and graphs? Understand the controls used?How about the formularies? If you have access it will be much faster in finding those results.

There are no clinical studies to state that feeding large breed dog's let alone Golden Retrievers puppy food beyond 3 months is not good for them. Show me one backed and accepted study stating this. You want find one will you? The higher end dog food companies have done studies that could possible suggest modified diets could help the growth cycle, but no full study concluded or linked Hip Displasia to diet. I dog with those genetics is prone regardless. I know of a few clietns who followed that idea, and 2 have dog's with severe displasia any how.I prefer a modified protein source myself, but that is my preference, however a maturing golden retriever (that is only 12 weeks old and far from done growing) shouldn't be placed on an Adult diet that does not have the complete balance the puppy formula's do. Over tiem the levels of protien have been modified and are now lower. 30% and higher is not needed, but 26-28% is not going to cause a dog to grow to fast and have hip displasia. Displasia doesn't work that way, and there are several factors leading to it.

You also do not understand how large some dog food companies are. IVD, Hills, IAMS (falling behind in consumer products), and several others have licensed Veterinary Specialists on staff that do these studies. They are not just manufactures, which you do not understand. Unlike your idea, they have conducted studies, gotten feedback from Veterinarians and dog's placed on the feeding programs, and do research into proper Nutrition. They just don't throw the stuff together and label it. Also note Javma will not and does not do those studies outside these companies, they report from universities and labs conducting studies for the companies. By all means question them. I do, the staff does. It forces compliance and better research.

On a note about Veterinary Technicians. There is a difference from a Licensed or Registered Technician and someone in the field who tries to learn as they go. I know some Technicians in the field 15 years that are smart cookies (and would also disagree with you. I will be glad to have several with backgrounds in diet come comment).However an individual who has gone through a proper course or preparation system, has the further background and base from knowing more detail in Anatomy and Physiology, Lab work, and Pharmacology. It is hard for a Technician who learned in a small animal practice, to have knowledge of Internal Medicine and advanced cases.

Not all Veterinarians and staff have a background in these areas, but be aware some have a deep background. They can speak over personal opinions by individuals who do not understand how some of the leading food companies operate. It not as simple as picking a food you like. You need to understand the way a Domesticated dog's digestive system works. How the organs function, and conditions that can alter that ability. I growing puppy deprived of their needs can suffer issues. It can decrease proper organ maturation, bone density, and other aspects. Hell some questions relating to that very fact are on the National Exam, and I am sorry you would fail that part.

There is no Grandfathering in. You take the National Exam, complete a accepted program and/or become licensed in your state or you don't. If you pass the exam you deserve respect and a hudge pat on the back (and a raise). Right now in most areas you need to have a signature of a Veterinarian and have been employed by a Veterinarian for a specific number of years to sit for the Exam. Regulations also vary state to state. The National Exam is no laughing matter and is very hard. You need a very good background and knowledge of all areas, including large animals. You better be strong in formularies, nutrition, pharmacology, nursing care, and emergency care. It is a long test with a time limit. Takign the Exam is worth it, and a proof of your knowledge, but it only begins there. Some CE programs are ok, if non biased. However I am sponsored by IVD for a general program (Pfizer, Meriel and many others are sponsoring as well). It far more detailed then simply ideas.

[diiorio]

You are welcome to contant and Veterinary University and request the info yourself, They are far to long to psot on a forum, and to technical for peopel here. Unless you understand E2/x * Met/2-12=tgf which also cna nto be typed properly here.Nor the grids.

THe fact is and remains, recommended feeding from researchers, Veterinarians, and Veterinarians Diet Specialists from many leadign companies is 10-17 months of a proepr puppy nutritional food and varies by the product and levels in the product.

THe numbers didn't get on the bag by guessing (like you or a minority at 3 months/12 weeks a critical growth period).

Did you make up thsi number? Where did you get 3 months? I would recommend a large breed diet or puppy diet with 28% protien from reliable sources rather then putting them on a adult food with other components missing. How did you arrive at 3 months which in contridicting to hundreds of studies, years of research,and the advice of Veterinarians and researchers who have been doign it far longer?

Also I am not slamming Candian Golden, I actually really liek her, and she is a sweety. I jsut want to poitn out information that can be incorrect. If she stated "In my opinion, I preffer to start feedign adult foods at 3 months" That would be correct.

I don't slam peopel, nor do I hate or dislike peopel based on that. She is a great person, seaking nthe best thign for here dog's, and yes will try anythign to achieve that. I am offerign knowledge I have learned and studied my butt off to reach, and will coninue to reach. I do debate things because I want to know why something. And trust me, I have ringed Hills reps and expecially Purina reps on issues, and why certain things are in their foods.

Canadian Golden has offered alot to this forum, soem incorrect, some good ideas, or some thigns deserving research. I poitn out what is known about dog's.

Believe me if a food company or drug rep makes a statement abotu a product, we demand evidence and clinical studies. An exampel is Fort Dodges claim that newer vaccines coming to the market are good for 3 years. We looked at the study results, and asked to see results on dog's and cat's not conformig nto those results. They also do not and will not back the claims, so it is a no go on our part. Why? We give this vaccine, and in 3 years before the next booster a clients dog contracts that illness and the titer is low. We get sued, not Fort Dodge.

It is good Canadian Golden challenges her vet's and and those companies as well. But adding ideas as fact is a different subject. I only add what I know or have seen. Becuase she challenges things, it is what helps force better studies (and we all know there needs to be better studies). I respect her for that part.

[diiorio]

Wanted to comment abotu one additional thing.

Candian Golden Commented "Nowhere in the JAVMA have I ever seen an article that stated it was unhealthy to feed adult food at 3 months"

Did you read every article. Many of our vet's and Techs have been ready JAVMA nad other publications for well over a decade (for 2 of our vet's since the first publication, and he is the oldest vet in this area). They wouldn't be able to tell you where the article is, or the number, the other Vet or individual needs to do the search. Thank god online access to much of their content is now avialable for Veterinarians.

THe reason you want find anythign stating switchign to adult food at 3 months is dangerous, is becuase it is not an accepted practice or recommendation. THey want state wiether it's bad at 3 4 5 6 7 or 8 months, there is no need to do that study sicne other studies state otherwise.

The recommending feeding on bags are based on years of research. The food company has to have the food tested and it must pass. It is then stated what the feedings should be. You will find foods that state feed puppies till 10 or 12 months, some 17 months. It depends on content and recommendations.

THe comment that food companies are out to make money and don't care abotu the dog's is just wrong. Remember alot of them have dog's or their own. If they didn't care, woudl they put milliosn into research? Why bother, just sale the food regardless of what can be found to improve their lives. It doesn't click now does it.(I approve them as long as they do it correctly).

Soem companies have doen away with outside research companies and developed their own under regulations. Millions more into it. I think they care. I ahve seen soem of them in action and believe me they do care. Some companies have built new facilities to house dog's compelte with space to run and exercise. Adopting in and then out animals. (soem companies don't and have to rely on shady reserach companies until they find out hwo bad they are).

You told a user that it is not good to feed puppy food after 3 months. It was an opinion that contradicts recommended feedings. No research supports it, however recommended feedings are due to research. I will say that they tend to over exagerate the amoutn to be fed sicne I have seen the facilities where some dog's are housed, and they have higher metabolisms. Personally many of us have foudn that reducign that ammoutn by 1/4 works far better.

[CanadianGolden]

Well, since you have failed to provide an atricle supporting your claims, I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree. I appreciate your lengthy answer, but I still don't see any proof in it, and therefore cannot be convinced that you are correct.

Food companies are businesses and must put money into research to avoid harming animals. They certainly don't want to be sued, but they also don't want to spend any unnecessary funds on premium ingredients.

I never stated all vets recommend Science Diet/Hill's, but many do, and I have personally been in many offices where they sold and stocked Hill's products.

I also never stated anything regarding hip dysplasia and diet, although I do believe that it is a condition affected by many factors, including but not limited to diet, exercise, growth rate, and of course genetics.

I'm sure you are well-qualified in your field, but I still assert that nutrition education presented to veterinarians (and I imagine techs as well) is funded by dog food companies, which, regardless of whether or not they do their own research, are businesses seeking profit. I would be less inclined to trust the research done by one of these companies because it is more likely to be biased.

What problems have you seen among puppies that seem to have been caused by feeding adult food at 3 months?

[CaynCher]

Did not read all of the above posts but the Vets in our area sell Science Diet & do recommend it. My regular Vet sells it too but does not push it. Some vets are not at all informed about dog foods & have never even heard of some of the more popular brands that we are feeding. One insisted/tried to get me to give the ProHeart 6 shot to my then 5mth old pup. Thank God I said "No way" as it was then taken off the market. He said the ProHeart shot was easier for accounting records. So for what it's worth, Vets may not know everything & we must be vigilant with the yearly shots & procedures they want to perform on our animals besides the Science Diet food issue. I try to keep my animals healthy naturally & stay away from doctors as much as possible.

[SteveR]

The bottom line is with the advent of the internet we have access to countless amounts of information. I know that when an issue arises whether it be about Sinbad, another family member or any topic at all, I do extensive research. I'm kind of a research hound. I trust my vets for their intrinsic knowledge of the inner workings of my dog but I can't count on them to be up to date on all the non-procedural health topics such as advanced nutrition or the use of non traditional courses of treatment. That is where my diligence comes in.

[goldengal]

Sorry I have not read all the postings and do not feed Nutro, but did want to say that Montana's breeder, as part of the contract, states that adult food should be fed although large breed puppy is acceptable. Regular puppy food is not acceptable to her because it makes them grow too fast. I did the LBP food until 6 months and then switched to Eagle Pack Holistic Lamb Meal & Rice.

[CanadianGolden]

A link of interest:

http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/do_i_need_to_use_a_puppy_food.htm

[Bethoven]

Great and thank you to Goldengal, CanadianGolden, Diiorio, and the others for your invaluable contributions.

[diiorio]

As far as the internet goes. Data you can get is abotu 3+ years old. Current data is not released to the public until total studies are complete, but are to Vets that are part of it.

I myself am now part of the study on displasia/diet and raw diets, and will eb for the next 4 years. Yes after last weeks report, it does look liek food can cause displastic poen dogs to develope it early, and as far as raw diets, there are good and bad to it. You never knwo when one of yoru animals will also be part of the study.

We see numerous dogs on raw diets with dental issues, and make count of it. After hundres of them, it points at that issue, mainly because owners do not take the extra steps to dental care.

Your vet may not be upto date, part of studies, but many are. We are not a small hospital, so that is part of the reason. Small 1-4 doctor hospitals dont see as many animals, and perhaps don't keep as good of records.

I have to agree with the switchign at 6 months issue now, after seeign the Golden retriever pair breed and resutls on hteir pups, in addition to the many other pairs (labs, Shepards, Mastiffs ..............).