Primal (a raw formula commercially prepared)

[Peter]

I'm new to this forum and we are adopting a golden puppy tomorrow from a well respected breeder. I'm thinking of transitioning our pup to Primal dog food, which is a commercially prepared raw food diet that comes frozen. According to their web site (primalpetfoods.com), Primal feed is organic, steriod and hormone free meats, produce & fruit, and 100% human grade raw food formula based on the BARF diet.

I've read much re BARF and believe it has merit, however, to be honest while BARF might be best for our dog it might not fit our lifestyle, and Primal simply makes things easier by having met the test of raw but keeping it simple. Has anyone any experience with Primal raw food diet formula based dog food? If so, please post your experience. Thank you.

Peter

[johnwa]

Hmmm. Sounds like an advertisement to me. Are you a distributor?

You used the word "transitioning" in your thread. I think that is most probably a good approach. To my knowledge, nobody has reported using this food on our dogfood database or the forums. Hmmm. ;)

[Sandra]

I am not the person to talk to, but if I wanted to feed grinded meat this is a very good choice in my opinion.
Nice of this product is the variate of meat. You do not have to give one source of meat each day.
Hope you'll come to a point to give some RMB's as well. It's much better for using the dogs teeth too and to use all the organs how it should be used.
Advertisor or not...who would say...but goodluck with your puppy!

Greets,
Sandra, Stanley & Whooper

[Peter]

No. lol. I'm not a distributor or retailer...I'm a managment consultant. I've read much re raw but have reservations re proper nutrient balance and so forth. Thank you for your responses.

[Peter]

I purchased Primal dog food from a local feed store yesterday. I bought three varieties chicken, beef and lamb formulas. I'll post the good/bad experiences I have feeding Primal to my new pup, Bentley

[johnwa]

Sounds good, thanks. :)

[Sandra]

Please, keep us posted. And pictures of your little puppy are always nice to look at!!

[Peter]

We've had Bentley for one week today. He was born on January 1, 2007.

The transition from Eukanuba large breed puppy food our excellent breeder was feeding was easy and simple. He's been on Primal for several days without any further transitioning..I guess since he was so very recently weaned the transition caused no problems. He loves Primal food, although I suspect this pup would eat anything and eat it quickly. He literally "wolfs" the food down. I've only fed the Beef formula but I'm going try the other meat formulas soon. No gas, no diarrhea, no apparent stomach uncomfortableness. Stools are firm.

I'm going to try a beef bone from Primal tomorrow.

The food is simple to prepare. It's comes frozen and must of course be defrosted in the refrigerator for about 18 hrs or so. The patties are easy to cut in half (pup serving). I try to warm the food a little by warming Bentley's dish first since the food is cold just coming out of the refrigerator. So far so good.

I'll continue to report my experiences for awhile longer.

[Peter]

Once I figure out how to post a picture of Bentley...I will.

[Sandra]

Hi Peter, that's a very positive start for your little pup!

Greets,
Sandra, Stanley & Whooper

[johnwa]

Once I figure out how to post a picture of Bentley...I will.

--Go back and read your welcome email. :) You know, the one that says "Please read entire email, or your account may not function properly". Yes, That Email! ;) :laugh2

There's also an FAQ link towards the top of the board, just to the right of User CP.

[Peter]

[IMG]

Here's the picture and thank you for the uploading pic advice, and yes I should read your introductory emails more carefully... :380

[Peter]

[QUOTE=Sandra]Hi Peter, that's a very positive start for your little pup!

Thank you. He's is absolutely wonderful.

Bentley has a oustanding temperament, already sits for his meals and anything else he wants...we try to make him sit for his toys, going outside, prior to eating his meal, and so forth. Essentially, making him "earn" his rewards. He has had one bathroom accident (which was our fault) and now waits patiently at the back door to go to his bathroom area. The kid's smart.

The Primal seems to be fine as reported earlier. I remain somewhat hesitant re feeding RAW but, after talking to a home office representative and having a better understanding of Primal's dedicated safe food processing, I think we're feeding Bentley the best opportunity just shy of the do-it-yourself RAW routine.

I've read the doomsday responses some have to feeding RAW. Frankly, it's as extreme as the most extreme RAW enthusiasts. While even Primal representatives suggest the feeding of raw bones, even chicken bones, I remain very hesitant with bones because of what I think are common sense potential problems of splintering.

I just want to feed my pup and later adult dog the best food and nutrients available. I hope Primal fits the requirement but I guess only time will tell.

[johnwa]

Glad to hear all is going well with your pup! He's a handsome dude. :)

I've read the doomsday responses some have to feeding RAW.
:laugh2 All I have to do is say the word RAW here, and someone will come out and defend it, in some cases, rather vehemently. ;) Nevertheless, I hope your dog continues to do well on your feeding method. Keep us posted. :)

[Sandra]

[QUOTE=Sandra]Hi Peter, that's a very positive start for your little pup!

Thank you. He's is absolutely wonderful.

Bentley has a oustanding temperament, already sits for his meals and anything else he wants...we try to make him sit for his toys, going outside, prior to eating his meal, and so forth. Essentially, making him "earn" his rewards. He has had one bathroom accident (which was our fault) and now waits patiently at the back door to go to his bathroom area. The kid's smart.

The Primal seems to be fine as reported earlier. I remain somewhat hesitant re feeding RAW but, after talking to a home office representative and having a better understanding of Primal's dedicated safe food processing, I think we're feeding Bentley the best opportunity just shy of the do-it-yourself RAW routine.

I've read the doomsday responses some have to feeding RAW. Frankly, it's as extreme as the most extreme RAW enthusiasts. While even Primal representatives suggest the feeding of raw bones, even chicken bones, I remain very hesitant with bones because of what I think are common sense potential problems of splintering.

I just want to feed my pup and later adult dog the best food and nutrients available. I hope Primal fits the requirement but I guess only time will tell.

Wow, what a beauty he is!!
And it sounds he's doing very fine in picking up commands and learning your rules. Haha, nothing for free, that's our rule here too.
Peter, you must feed what 'suits' you. In my believe your way of feeding is much better then kibble, so you're on the right way. Raw meaty cartilage bones of young animals do not splinter. Really, they do not. Cooking bones is dangerous and has high risk of splintering, because the bone structure changes into very hard. And even puppies know just exactly what to do with young RMB's. Feeding raw is not extreme, it's a normal natural way of feeding your dog and gives great benefits for improving health. People make someone believe raw feeders ARE extreme, but that's not true. We're perfectly normal people.....and so are our beloved dogs. :D
Here a 'shocking' picture of my Stanley and a piece of goat.
http://www.home.zonnet.nl/peter.hoogendoorn/g8.jpg
And Whooper with a piece of young goat with very soft cartilage. For example this is what your puppy could eat perfectly.
http://www.home.zonnet.nl/peter.hoogendoorn/g4.jpg

Big hugs to your little Grizzly bear!

Greets,
Sandra, Stanley & Whooper

[Peter]

Sandra,

Thank you for your kind words and your "kids" are beautiful.

When I wrote, "I've read the doomsday responses some have to feeding RAW...frankly, it's as extreme as the most extreme RAW enthusiasts." I meant there appears to be strong feelings by enthusiasts at both ends of the spectrum that is, for and against. I do understand the benefits of RAW vs. Kibble. On the face of it, it's difficult to argue against nature and clearly much of the Kibble product is junk food. Although, I think, not all Kibble is junk.

There are decent Kibble foods available that are committed to producing a holistic feed. For example, Artemis dog food is a Kibble but packed with, at least in my opinion, quality ingredients including human grade protein without grain fillers and so forth. I use Artemis as a treat and when it's inconvenient to feed Primal Raw Formula I feed the Artemis, although only occasionally. On the other hand, I can't find good science that settles the question RAW vs. Kibble.

Most information re RAW is anecdotal. It's not that I'm a purist and require peer reviewed published journal authority, it's just that good science to settle the question appears unavailable or at least I can't find it.

Thank you for the insights that raw bones won't splinter, nonetheless, I remain concerned. Ingested bones not adequately ground by chewing or bones swallowed too large might cause a problem. Can a pup adequately chew (grind) bone material sufficiently to avoid problems? I purchased a raw beef bone from Primal but I haven't given the bone to Bentley yet. I suppose I haven't given him the bone out of fear, probably an exagerated fear, but I will give it to him and watch closely how well he chews it.

By the way, this forum is excellent and kudos to those responsible.

[IMG]

[Sandra]

Thank god there are some decent kibble brands without the nasty fillers, but it won't come close to a proper carnivore diet.
Science......there are no proper kibble studies and no proper raw meat diet studies independently registrated as official.
The first one is too manipulated by the power behind the kibble manufactures and the second one cannot be supported due to no commercial influences.
The only science facts are that kibble exists only some 50 years and carnivore diets thousands and thousands of years, and our pets were not as sick back then as they are now.
You red the other topic. Please make your own opinion on that. I made mine, several years ago......I see very healthy dogs now. That's what counts for me. My 'science' is registrated by my vet.....doing the files on Stanley and Whooper. :D

Please read Dr. tom Lonsdales free E-books or Jane Andersons free E-book. One of the many many samples to help you making your own 'science'. :)

Thank you for the insights that raw bones won't splinter, nonetheless, I remain concerned. Ingested bones not adequately ground by chewing or bones swallowed too large might cause a problem. Can a pup adequately chew (grind) bone material sufficiently to avoid problems? I purchased a raw beef bone from Primal but I haven't given the bone to Bentley yet. I suppose I haven't given him the bone out of fear, probably an exagerated fear, but I will give it to him and watch closely how well he chews it.

Yes, cartilage bones with lots of meat are no problem for your little pup. But your beef bone seems to me a 'recreation bone'. This is a beary bone and is very hard. As long as this bone has lots of meat, your pup should eat the meat of until the bone is eaten bear. After 30 minutes you must take the bone away. Such bones are toothbreakers when given often, but not given too much it will be a great treat for your puppy. Please, never leave your puppy alone with bones.

[Peter]

Sandra,

Thank you for the recommended reading material. I agree it's difficult to argue against nature and I agree with your assessment re commercial exploitation of good science...it happens in nearly all fields.

Unfortunately it's a catch 22: we need the money provided by commercial interests to fund the science but we're often offended by the conflict that inherently exists. Without independent studies funded with public money it's difficult not to be critical.

What bones do you recommend for puppies?

[heather r]

I won't get into food debate but your Bentley is a cutie :)

Our breeder has her dogs on raw diet but we went with a high quality kibble plus adding meat, egg, salmon etc. to supplement diet. Also our 11 month old adores broccoli and bananas( small pieces) . We give Kelsi a beef marrow bone while we eat dinner. Sometimes she will turn her nose up at it and I wonder if she senses something off with that bone.

Heather R :reddogx

Let us know how pup does on current diet!

[Sandra]

Sandra,

Thank you for the recommended reading material. I agree it's difficult to argue against nature and I agree with your assessment re commercial exploitation of good science...it happens in nearly all fields.

Unfortunately it's a catch 22: we need the money provided by commercial interests to fund the science but we're often offended by the conflict that inherently exists. Without independent studies funded with public money it's difficult not to be critical.
What bones do you recommend for puppies?

Your're absolutely right.
There are several independent studies done by some vetenarians showing that kibble food is destroying the resistance of pets due to the industrial power. That (for two little examples out of the much bigger risks) yeast infections and pancreas- and kidney insufficiency are one of the major risks no matter what kind of kibble fed.
But the power of the industry giants which own dog food companies for recycling the carbage is much too high.
The real independent studies are the dogs itselves. Lots of dogs are free of very nasty diseases after changing to a natural way of feeding. Increasing resistance goes through the stomac and more resistance means more overall health to fight other triggers that destroy their immune systems, like unneccesary yearly vaccinations, using wrong medicine and so on.

What bones your puppy could eat? Chicken necks, chicken backs, fat fish like Mackarelle and Salmon (not the Pacific Salmon), young goat and lamb ribs, small game and of course also the bone you bought, taking the precaution earlier mentioned while giving that.

[Peter]

Thank you for the recommendations Sandra, and I will try RMB as a replacement for Primal a few times p/week. I'm curious, where do you feed RMB in bad weather?

Heather, which kibble are you feeding? I'm using Artemis but only as treats and sometimes while training. Bentley's been on Primal for two full weeks (he will be 10 weeks on 3/12).

I've moved from the Primal beef formula to the Chicken formula. Coat is excellent, stools are firm and no foul odor. There is no doubt about it, Bentley loves Primal but again he'd probably eat anything. One concern is he can eat his portion in less than 7-10 seconds...he literally gobbles up his food and licks the plate completely clean in very short order. I believe I'm feeding sufficient portions around 6% of body weight p/day, spread over three feedings.

[heather r]

Peter; We have been feeding Kelsi Innova large breed puppy food and our vet said to continue with it until she is a year. If we don't have meat or egg, we add a 1/4 can of Innova wet food.

Kelsi gobbles it down.

Heather R

[Jo Ellen]

7-10 seconds sounds about normal :D

[Sandra]

Thank you for the recommendations Sandra, and I will try RMB as a replacement for Primal a few times p/week. I'm curious, where do you feed RMB in bad weather?


My boys eat in the garden and in bad weather they eat in the hall. Today they'll eat green tripe. Good or bad weather, that's something definately has to be eaten outside. :D

My Whooper cannot eat grinded food very well. His head is too big to gobble the stuff. Sometimes they get grinded horse meat. Stanley finishes in at least 8 seconds, Whooper needs at least 5 minutes and wow.....what a mess he makes then.

[Jo Ellen]

Sandra, how do you handle the raw feeding when one of your dogs finishes before the other? Any competition?

[Peter]

I'm relieved the collective experience is puppy's eat quickly...it just seemed to quick at 7-8 seconds for the raw Primal feed.

I'm trying a RMB, turkey neck, this afternoon for Bentley. He's 10 weeks on monday and I think he's ready. I chose the turkey neck bone because it has quite a bit of meat on it. I'll watch him closely when he eats it. I hope I don't come across as a wuss or an over protective nuerotic re the RMB feeding, but it makes me a bit nervous. One things for sure, he won't be able to "wolf" down the turkey neck in less than 10 seconds!

[Jo Ellen]

I think Bentley will impress you. He'll know exactly what to do with that turkey neck.

I wonder if turkey makes dogs sleepy like it makes us sleepy? Bentley may spend the afternoon napping away .... dreaming of his next exciting meal :D

Let us know how long the turkey neck lasts !!

[Sandra]

Sandra, how do you handle the raw feeding when one of your dogs finishes before the other? Any competition?

No, not anymore now. In the beginning when Whooper came with us at one year of age, he showed some food anger. That was his character though, because he didn't trust human that much and I think he was never tought to share food with humans (he was on kibble back then). And in dog language it is 'not done' taking food from a lower in rank.
So, when he made the change to raw meat diet I trained him on trusting me giving him food and exchanging with other food. In that time the dogs ate apart from each other to not disturb my relationship with Whooper. Whooper is no fighter, but a 'runner' and does not want conflicts. Stanley on the other hand likes food very much, and likes to sneak up behind Whooper's back steeling food.
Since times they eat together in the garden and Stanley always finishes first. Then, he goes back inside and has to wait until Whooper finishes his meal. Then Stanley is allowed to go back in the garden where both dogs lick off the tiles for 'desert'.

No, my dogs do get along great together. I am thankful for that. ;)

[Sandra]

I'm relieved the collective experience is puppy's eat quickly...it just seemed to quick at 7-8 seconds for the raw Primal feed.

I'm trying a RMB, turkey neck, this afternoon for Bentley. He's 10 weeks on monday and I think he's ready. I chose the turkey neck bone because it has quite a bit of meat on it. I'll watch him closely when he eats it. I hope I don't come across as a wuss or an over protective nuerotic re the RMB feeding, but it makes me a bit nervous. One things for sure, he won't be able to "wolf" down the turkey neck in less than 10 seconds!

Peter, I understand the way you feel. But do not be frightened, you bring that over to your little puppy.
If you put on an old glove or fase cloth/flannel you are able to help your puppy the first couple of times while eating.

[Peter]

Well, you were right Sandra, Bentley did just fine and ate the entire turkey neck RMB in about 20-30 minutes. He loved it. No problems gagging or taking in more than appropriate sized bites. He essentially nibbled his way through the entire neck bone. The neck bone was larger than I had originally thought and my thinking is it's an entire meal replacement for the pup.

Thank you for your kind considerations, Sandra. My wife and I will cautiously move forward with RMB and Primal, using Artemis kibble as treats only during training periods. I'll continue to report on my progress in this thread.

[Sandra]

That's great Peter!
You could join a raw feeding forum for further advize and knowledge.

[Peter]

That's great Peter!
You could join a raw feeding forum for further advize and knowledge.

Which raw feeding forum would you suggest for a novice like ourselves?

[Sandra]

Depends on the area you live.
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawlists.html
But this is a good start:
http://www.rawlearning.com/

[Peter]

Depends on the area you live.


I live in northern California. You've been most helpful, Sandra. Thank you.

[Peter]

Bentley is 13 weeks on April 2 and has eaten Primal RAW formula since we adopted him near his 8 week birthday. Thanks to others on this forum, he also eats raw meaty bones like chicken backs & necks and Turkey necks. I can report that my experience and Bentley's experience with Primal food is excellent. His intake is approximately 2/3 Primal 1/3 raw meaty bones and we're transitioning to 2/3 raw meaty bones to 1/3 Primal.

I try to limit his food intake to about 6%-8% of his body weight daily and his body weight has increased nicely without putting on much fat. He looks and acts healthy and the Vet checkup's reports are excellent.

The only difficulty we've had is a bout with "pudding" diarrhea caused by Bentley's owners when his Primal raw food formula was changed from Beef to Duck without transitioning properly. We provided Bentley with some canned pumkin, advised here on the forum for diarrhea, and it worked within half a day.

I can report, at least for Bentley, Primal is excellent raw food and a good complement to a raw regimen when convenience is desired.

For those that feed raw please let me know what other types of RMB, other than chicken necks & backs and turkey necks, you feed (especially puppies) and how do you transition from one type to another.

[elvira]

I have fed my puppy duck necks and rabbits. I waited till he was older to feed him lambribs.

[Peter]

I have fed my puppy duck necks and rabbits. I waited till he was older to feed him lambribs.

How did you handle the transition from one type of RMB to another (to avoid stomach upset and so forth)?

[Sandra]

Bentley is 13 weeks on April 2 and has eaten Primal RAW formula since we adopted him near his 8 week birthday. Thanks to others on this forum, he also eats raw meaty bones like chicken backs & necks and Turkey necks. I can report that my experience and Bentley's experience with Primal food is excellent. His intake is approximately 2/3 Primal 1/3 raw meaty bones and we're transitioning to 2/3 raw meaty bones to 1/3 Primal.

I try to limit his food intake to about 6%-8% of his body weight daily and his body weight has increased nicely without putting on much fat. He looks and acts healthy and the Vet checkup's reports are excellent.

The only difficulty we've had is a bout with "pudding" diarrhea caused by Bentley's owners when his Primal raw food formula was changed from Beef to Duck without transitioning properly. We provided Bentley with some canned pumkin, advised here on the forum for diarrhea, and it worked within half a day.

I can report, at least for Bentley, Primal is excellent raw food and a good complement to a raw regimen when convenience is desired.

For those that feed raw please let me know what other types of RMB, other than chicken necks & backs and turkey necks, you feed (especially puppies) and how do you transition from one type to another.

Little bit of diarrhea is normal. You could prevent it to add some new food to old food. Nice to hear the RMB's go well. The chicken and turkey are excellent. Mabey you could provide some other birds like guinea fowl, quail, duck, young goose. Whole fish like young mackerel, sardines or young ray (not cleaned) are also fine. Very young goat/lamb have very soft cartilage bones. If you could provide those ribs with lots of muscle meat on it, that is an excellent source.
If you limit the Primal Raw Formula, then it's better to add some fresh organs too. Use organs that are nog in the Primal and not more than 15% of the total amount (including the Primal).

My boys eat 'red meat' (goat/lamb/calf) highly twice a week. The other days game, green tripe, fish and so on.

What percentages do you use?

Some meat examples;

Goat muscle meat
http://www.freewebs.com/rawdoggies/geitensnippers.jpg

Quail
http://www.freewebs.com/rawdoggies/v11.JPG

Lamb tripe with duck legs
http://www.freewebs.com/rawdoggies/m1.jpg

Very young goat ribs
http://www.freewebs.com/rawdoggies/w5k.jpg

Hope this information will help you.

Greets,
Sandra, Stanley & Whooper

[Jo Ellen]

Lamb tripe with duck legs

That sounds like an exquisite french menu selection rofl3

I would so love to find green tripe. Peter, let me know if you have any luck finding this.

[Jo Ellen]

Sandra, how do you know how much to give your dogs? Like that goat muscle meat ... does one dog get all of that or do you split it?

[Peter]

What percentages do you use?

Greets,
Sandra, Stanley & Whooper

Thank you for the suggestions and I will look for additional meats like your examples.

I'm not sure, exactly, what you meant by percentages but my feeding for Bentley goes something like this:

In the early AM, 4 oz of Primal patty (beef or chicken) along with one chicken back. Around 6 hours later a turkey neck. About 6 hours later usually around 6 PM, 8 oz of Primal formula Chicken or Beef. I trim off most of the skin on the chicken backs and the turkey necks are skinless. I don't feed chicken necks since they are so small Bentley has no problem swallowing them nearly whole, which makes me uncomfortable even if it doesn't seem to bother him.

Bentley's weighing in around 18 pounds and he just turned 13 weeks today. I try to feed him around 8 % of his body weight daily.

He's putting on weight but little fat; seems to be growing well and proportionally...that is he's maintained his "shape" and I can feel his ribs easily. See attached pictures.

[Sandra]

Thank you for the suggestions and I will look for additional meats like your examples.

I'm not sure, exactly, what you meant by percentages but my feeding for Bentley goes something like this:

In the early AM, 4 oz of Primal patty (beef or chicken) along with one chicken back. Around 6 hours later a turkey neck. About 6 hours later usually around 6 PM, 8 oz of Primal formula Chicken or Beef. I trim off most of the skin on the chicken backs and the turkey necks are skinless. I don't feed chicken necks since they are so small Bentley has no problem swallowing them nearly whole, which makes me uncomfortable even if it doesn't seem to bother him.

Bentley's weighing in around 18 pounds and he just turned 13 weeks today. I try to feed him around 8 % of his body weight daily.

He's putting on weight but little fat; seems to be growing well and proportionally...that is he's maintained his "shape" and I can feel his ribs easily. See attached pictures.

He's cute!! 8% of his body weight daily is just fine.
Around the 4 months you could lower a bit to 6% until after 9 months for preventing growing pains. I ment the percentages of a prey.

In my case 2 or 2,5% of body weight per day over 5 meals a week:
60-70% muscle meat
10-15% organ meat
10-15% bones
10-20% 'different'

That multiplying with the 8% per day.
But Elvira could tell you more about that.

But as you do it now sounds very good to me. Little bit more fresh organ would be fine. My boys began also with chicken necks, but I quit that. Too big heads need larger pieces meaty bones. :D