Iams Large breed for puppy

[angenbear]

Sorry, I have been trying to use the search but everytime I use it, there's no search results found. So, I'm curious, why is IAMS in the bottom of the list in terms of rating? Should I be worried that IAMS is not good for Bear in the long run? I've already changed him from Petsmart Authority brand, figuring that's causing his diarhhea and that it may not be a good filler, so went to IAMS. I figured IAMs and Eukanaba are made from the same company except the price is lowered on the IAMs, so I went with IAMS.

[Hunnybug]

Most of the people on this site think that Iams is not a very good food. I know they don't like the corn in it, and I am not sure what else. I sure someone will fill you in on how "terrible" it is.:\
However, I disagree. My breeder uses Iams. Honey was on Iams Large Breed Puppy until she was 1 year, and did just great on it. I went to Iams Chunks, but have recently switched to Eukanuba. Honey has developed allergies, and they are under control right now. Eukanuba has more fish oils, etc., to help with the skin and coat, so that is why I switched. I say if it is working for you stick with it, golden owners will always disagree about something, but we are all trying to do what we think is best for our dogs.

Sarah

[SteveR]

Nutrition is one of those things where you have to consider long term affects versus immediate results. Just as with us humans, the more healthy a diet, the better chances we have to avoid major health issues later in life. Many of us here on this board understand the health issues facing Goldens and we try to minimize them by feeding them the healthiest foods available. Do some dogs do well on supermarket brands? Sure but by the time you realize that yours didn't it's too late. If your puppy has an excellent coat and everything is going great on your current food, you could attribute that to youthfulness. What will your pup be like 5 or 6 years from now? You could eat cheeseburgers every day of your life and look to be fit as a fiddle and then keel over at 50 from a heart attack. What's going on inside is tough to gauge when your dog only gets rudimentary exams once per year. Since it is impossible to know just what long term benefits or negative affects the different foods have on my dog, I will err on the side of caution. Why not provide the healthiest food available? Cost? The cost is really minimal. Convenience? Many super premiums are readily available so it shouldn't be that hard to find them. If your on this board it's because like the rest of us you are totally committed to your pet and you probably don't even consider cost and inconvernience when talking about your golden. I run mine to the vet for every little thing without considering the expense, yet will put my own trips off to the doctor, while I "wait and see". It's kind of laughable. Now as far as IAMS goes, a company that produces pet foods should not conduct cruel animal testing yet they have been known to do just that. Ok that would be enough to strike them from my list. After that if you look at the ingredients:
Chicken, Corn Meal, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Chicken By-Product Meal, Ground Whole Grain Barley, Fish Meal (source of fish oil), Dried Beet Pulp (sugar removed), Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E, and Citric Acid), Natural Chicken Flavor, Dried Egg Product, Brewers Dried Yeast, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Flax Meal, Calcium Carbonate, Choline Chloride, DL-Methionine, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Rosemary Extract, Thiamine Mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement (source of vitamin B2), Inositol, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Potassium Iodide, Folic Acid, Cobalt Carbonate

Pretty much all of the major ingredients are fillers. Of the protein sources, Chicken and chicken by-product meal, do you have any idea what goes into chicken by-product meal? Neither do they. Just about anything they can scrape off the slaughterhouse floor. With all of the better quality foods out there I think I'll stick to a brand that has a higher respect for animals and one that promotes health instead of profits.

[Me and Gracie]

Very well written SteveR! :clap

For my personal thoughts see the topic "whats your opinion on ProPlan and PurinaOne".

[KatysPal]

When Katy was a puppy, about 4½ years ago, I fed her IAMS Large Breed Puppy. She had horrible gas. Vile, room-clearing waves of death would flood over us, with no warning. At about nine months*, she developed anal-gland trouble; the vet told us she needed a food with more fiber. I started learning about dog food then, and we switched to Innova for general quality's sake [though I'm not sure how it stacks up, fiber-wise, to be honest. I just wanted to stop feeding what I immediately decided was garbage]. The gas went away--I thought for a long time she had just grown out of it--but since then I've read several posts on this board or boards like it from owners whose puppies had awful gas while on IAMS. So I'm inclined to think IAMS was probably responsible for the gas. Perhaps the cheap ingredients were difficult to digest well. Innova didn't help us with the anal glands, but it was very well digested.

As far as how IAMS' quality compares to other commercial dry foods, it all depends on which ones are chosen for comparison, and who's in the population ranking them. It would rank much higher compared to Ol'Roy and Gravy Train, but you're not likely to find a lot of people on this board feeding either of those two. I hold the opinion regarding the Great Dog Food Debate that once you learn enough about dog food to even start talking about ingredients, a huge number of dog 'foods' aren't even on your radar any more. No one's likely to try to argue the merits of "Kibbles N Bits", for example. It's been my experience that IAMS typically crops up as a Before food: "I used to feed IAMS," "I'm currently feeding IAMS but I want to try..."--that sort of thing. As such it tends to be towards the bottom of our diet discussions. Once you start comparing labels, IAMS gets less attractive.

I know a vet tech who feeds Science Diet despite being aware of its unpopularity among Dog Food Nuts, saying "If it ain't broke don't fix it." She considers her dogs healthy, so she feels no need to change. I say, a)why wait for trouble? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and b) how can she gauge health and its relationship to diet if she's never changed the diet? Once you've seen a noticeable improvement in a dog's condition due to a diet upgrade, it changes your idea of, not only food, but what exactly constitutes a healthy dog. I never thought Katy's coat was dull until I switched to Innova and it got brighter. I never knew her stools were too soft to express her anal glands until I switched to raw and her glands suddenly emptied themselves properly. My frame of reference for what constitutes good health has shifted--perhaps my vet tech friend's dogs are at the top of her health scale because the majority of the dogs she sees are noticeably ill.

If you want a look at the ingredients list for practically every dog food available in the US, at least [though I imagine much of this applies to Canada as well, sorry Brits], go to Earl Wolfe's <a href="http://www.doberdogs.com/menu.html" target="_new">Dog Food Comparison Charts</a>.

Anne S

*we might have moved up to Large Breed Adult by that point, I'm not certain. I know we did feed it for a time, before I got wise.

johnwa, I want a posticon for "Warning: Long-Winded Reply." Perhaps my User Name is a good enough warning for most people <img border=0 src="http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/tongue.gif" />

[angenbear]

Thanks for the input! I was curious, and decided to go to both IAMs and Eukanaba site, considering both are from the same company. The ingredients for large breed puppy are the same. So how did the Eukanba large breed get the higher ranking than IAMs? Must be the taste. What I will do is stick to Iams large breed, he's already had 2 food changes, I don't want him to get more diarhhea. When he is 4 months, by then I will do a lot of research, and switch him to adult food since it seems that's the recommended time to change to adult, right?

<a href="http://www.iams.com/en_US/jhtmls/product/sw_ProductDetail_Page.jhtml?pdi=98&li=en_US&bc=I&sc=D&pti=PD&tc=1&bsc=&lsc=&_DARGS=%2Fen_US%2Fjhtmls%2Fproduct%2Fsw_ProductLis t_droplet.jhtml.3_A&_DAV=1" target="_new">IAMs</a>

<a href="http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/product/sw_ProductDetail_Page.jhtml?pdi=40&li=en_US&bc=E&sc=D&pti=PD&tc=1&bsc=&lsc=&_DARGS=%2Fen_US%2Fjhtmls%2Fproduct%2Fsw_ProductLis t_droplet.jhtml.1_A&_DAV=1" target="_new">Eukanaba</a>

[KatysPal]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The ingredients for large breed puppy are the same. So how did the Eukanba large breed get the higher ranking than IAMs? Must be the taste.<hr></blockquote>

I must disagree. If the dry foods tasted particularly good, how could they sell you their new <a href="http://www.iamssavory.com/#" target="_new">IAMS Savory Sauces</a>? Pardon any typos; once I saw this product I started banging my head on the keyboard.

Back to the labels. In Eukanuba LBP, Chicken By-Product Meal is listed as the 2nd ingredient, followed by Corn meal and then Ground Whole Grain Sorghum...while for IAMS, it goes CM, then GWGS, then CBPM. The rest is identical. This indicates basically only that by dry weight Euk has more chicken by-product meal than IAMS. Slightly less cheap to make, then. Slightly less corn-based.

Here's the real question: Procter & Gamble makes both IAMS and Eukanuba. If their goal is producing the best nutrition possible, ha ha, why make both? According to their site,

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Iams.com is a special site for caring pet owners just like you. You can find helpful advice, quick answers, nutritional updates–everything you need to help your best friend enjoy a long, healthy life.<hr></blockquote>

while

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You want your pet to be at his peak and to do what’s best for him. Eukanuba.com can help you understand the nutritional needs for every stage of your pet’s life.<hr></blockquote>

Pff. This is not helpful. We're lucky they only make the two kinds of dog food, though, look at their shampoo selection! Pantene, Physique, Pert Plus, Herbal Essences, Daily Defense, Renewal 5x, Head & Shoulders, Vidal Sassoon? To wash my clothes, should I use Ariel, Bolt, Cheer, Daz, Gain, Ivory soap, or Tide? Now, I'm glad they make Thermacare heat wraps, which come in handy...and to get my precious Swiffer away from me you'd have to pry it from my cold dead hand, what with the dog hair and the wood floors...but they don't make nine of them, marketed under different names.

I don't believe P&G is the devil, necessarily. But they're just far too big to care about dog food quality from a health-promotion standpoint--it's just one of their many many products, so what reason do they have to operate via any other mechanism than profit margin? IAMS vs Eukanuba, judging by the ingredient list, is just a question of pushing a lever at the "mix" stage of the processing plant.

Anne S

[Me and Gracie]

Angenbear, There are lots of causes of puppy diarrhea, have you had Bear to the vet yet? Anytime my dog has serious poop problems I take a stool sample to the vet. You said in other posts that you have given anti-diarrhea meds (which may just cover up the symptoms of a medical problem) and that Bear seems to drink alot. It's important to rule out any medical problem (worms, bacterial infections, parvo, distemper, other diseases) that could be causing the diarrhea before focusing on the food. In both people and animals diarrhea means we're losing fluids and nutrition.

Please keep us posted on Bear's poop.

[angenbear]

Well the diarhhea has been coming off and on. He gets a lot of water. He sure does go crap a lot though, some solid, some diarhhea. I've been mixing rice with his Iams. I will do that for a few days and wean him off of it. I have a vet appointment on Monday, will bring a sample of his poop with me. Other than the diarrhea, he's doing great. No other symptoms like vomitting and nothing on the poop. The vet gave him a wellness exam, everything is good.

Proctor and Gamble does make a lot of products. I didn't realize they made both Iams and Eukanaba. If the vet says he's clear monday after seeing the poop sample. and he's sstill going diarrhea, I think I'll have to do another food change on him.

[KatysPal]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>He sure does go crap a lot though, some solid, some diarhhea.<hr></blockquote>

If Bear turns out to be fine, with no underlying health reason for the diarrhea [we're all hoping so, please don't forget to keep us updated!], and you do decide to try a food switch, remember that if you switch to a significantly more digestible food [Canidae, Wellness, Innova, are all popular here], you should see a noticeable decrease in poop, even while feeding less of it.

Let us know how it, um, comes out!

Anne S

[angenbear]

I will have to look online since I havent' found any of those in the stores. I also found interesting is that during the day he does solids, at evening/night he does diarrhea sometimes. when he's in his pack/play he barks and that's when we know he needs to go. When he goes pee, he whines. I was considering perhaps he's allergic to the chicken and maybe switch to lamb and rice. If he does diarhea for another day. I have to make an appointment to the vet for his second shots, so will inform them of what's going on. And yes, I'll keep you guys updated.

[Me and Gracie]

Some of the dog food sites (www.canidae.com) have store locators. I've found that it's the smaller, independently owned stores that carry the really good food.

When he goes pee, he whines. Is he telling you he needs to go outside by whining? ... or whining while he pees?

I was considering perhaps he's allergic to the chicken and maybe switch to lamb and rice. The off-and-on diarrhea is the only symptom, right? Food allergies are usually accompanied by itchy skin, biting, paw chewing. Try a google search on 'dog food allergy symptoms'.

[angenbear]

He whines that he wants to go pee outside. He doesn't whine when he goes pee.

I called the vet, and told her about the diarhhea, she said that since it takes awhile for him to adjust to new food, that I should put him on rice and cottage cheese for 3 days, then after 3 days, put 1/4th of his food with the cottage cheese and rise, and next day half and half, and the 3rd, most of his food with a bit of rice and cottage cheese. Now if I do change his food during the 3 day cottage/rice period, do you think he will go back to having diarrhea since another food change has occured? He still goes crap a lot! I can't give him any vaccinations til the diarhhea is cleared. And if he sstill has diarhhea when I give him his food, then they said I can bring him in with a stool sample and test it.

[angenbear]

Ok, Bear has been doing good with the cottage cheese and rice for 3 days. The first day he had a bit of diarhhea. Second day, mostly solid, third day he did have a bit of iams mixed in the morning, and afternoon and evening he just had cottage cheese and rice. I decided to change his food to canidea *fingers crossed* and tomorrow I will put 1/4 of it mixed with most of cottage cheese/rice for his 3 feedings, half and half on the second da y, and 3rd day mostly canidea and a bit of cottage cheese/rice. I hope this will be it for Bear. Luckily, he's a happy Bear, so the diarhhea hasn't made him feel bad. The vet did say though that with canidea, most GR usually gets skin allergies from it.

[KatysPal]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The vet did say though that with canidea, most GR usually gets skin allergies from it. <hr></blockquote>

I would love to hear more about this, can you give us details? Did your vet explain the mechanism by which s/he believes Canidae causes allergies?

Anne S

Editing to add a link to an article discussing <a href="http://www.lbah.com/allergy.htm" target="_new">Pet Allergies</a>. It jives with what I have previously read in that it indicates only about 10% of dermatitis cases are caused by food. I really do want more info from your vet, if you can find the time to pass it along.

[angenbear]

Hi, sorry I didn't get more info on the allergies from the vet, she might have said "some" and not most.

[KatysPal]

I am deeply suspicious. The rare actual food allergy is a reaction to a particular protein--in dogs, typically beef, corn, dairy, wheat, soy, chicken, and yes, even lamb. These are common ingredients in many dog foods, including super premiums. Never have I heard of being allergic to a brand of dog food before. That doesn't mean it's impossible, of course <img border=0 src="http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/tongue.gif" />, but the mechanism of allergy would have to somehow be formula-specific, and it's my understanding that a cooked meat protein is a cooked meat protein, regardless of source or quality.

If Canidae has a proprietary preservative of some sort, that would make some kind of wild sense, but otherwise I'm wondering what her reasoning is for blaming Canidae, which most people switch to. She's the vet, though, presumably she has a reason? Does anyone else have experience that would lead them to suspect Canidae?

Anne S

[angenbear]

Ok, status on Bear, 3 days after being on cottage cheese/rice and then 3 days of mixing it with Canidae, Bear is doing better, very less diarhhea now, we are going to extend another day of cottage cheese and rise to be on the safe side. I did a little booboo when I got a different brand of cottage cheese, boy did he feel the difference. <img border=0 src="http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif" /> well wednesday, he crapped so many times all day, most was diarrhea. I'm going to get a sample of his poop and take it to the vets. I thought Canidae was suppose to cause less stools. Other than that, he is great and growing.

[Marieppie]

Another way that Iams and Eukanuba may differ is that the source of the ingredients could be different. Chicken by-product Meal from one company may contain different amounts of differnt by-products than from another company in another location.
Another reason why a company may produce more than one food is that consumers like choices and even if they believe both foods are equally good for a dog, they will make different formulas to satisfy the different desires of pet owners and different digestive needs of different dogs. Not all dogs do well on the same formula, just like not all detergent formulas work the same in all water chemistries.

[Me and Gracie]

I'm so glad you're taking a stool sample into the vet. You said that Bear has "less diarrhea"... but he should be getting to the point where he has no diarrhea after the bland diet. I've always used rice and boiled chicken, not cottage cheese. Some dogs can have problems with diary.

I feed Canidae and have no problems with it. I'm with Katys Pal Anne, it seems really odd that a vet would distinguish a brand of food causing allergies as opposed to an ingredient.

[MickeyBailey]

Another question about IAMS Large Breed Puppy. I am picking up our new puppy in 3 days. She will be exactly 8 weeks old. The breeder has been feeding IAMS Large Breed Puppy, so I bought a 20lb bag. I had already decided that whatever he was giving her, that is what I would give her also - at least to start out with. After reading these threads I am more than ever convinced that the thing to do is to change her over to something else as soon as possible. I was thinking of using the IAMS by itself for the first week we have her home, then mixing it with the new brand half and half (haven't decided which one yet) for the 2nd week, and going to the new brand completely at the start of week #3. Does that sound like a good plan?

[monomer]

...The vet did say though that with canidea, most GR usually gets skin allergies from it.
...I'm wondering what her reasoning is for blaming Canidae, which most people switch to. She's the vet, though, presumably she has a reason? ...

It's probably because Canidae uses so many different protein sources... I don't think any other dog food uses nearly so many. The greater the variety of protein sources, the more things to be allergic to AND the more things to BECOME allergic to in the future (if your dog is prone to food allergies) and then good luck in trying to find a hypo-allergenic diet then.

[CanadianGolden]

Iams puppy food is just fine to use for a short while. My puppy came from Canada and I think the breeder had her on Purina puppy--since they're only on puppy food for a month, I used that until I switched to adult food at 3 months. However, if you're feeding LB puppy and plan to do so for awhile, I would change her. She really should eat regular puppy food until 3 months, though, and then go either to adult food or to LB puppy.

[Penny]

Guys, my sister and I are brand new Golden owners. This is a first for me as I have always had cast iron stomached Labradors prior to getting Murphy. Murphy is a 12 week old Golden. He made the transition to his new home with flying colors. I had learned with my Lab puppies to take water away a couple hours before bedtime, and so Murphy didn't wake once through the night to be taken out. We are crate training him and he didn't even suffer separation anxiety. The problem is recently (like in the last month) he has been suffering through bouts of diarrhea. When it first occured, we immediately called the vet who recommended putting him on a diet of macaroni and yoghurt. He promptly threw this up. We took him into the vet who proclaimed him free of worms and harboring no heinous viruses. They gave us an antibiotic and something to settle his stomach, plus we changed from Iams, which we had been feeding, to something calling Maximum. It was okay as long as he was on the medication, but as soon as the meds ran out, the diarrhea came back. He went outside to defecate at 9 pm, 10 pm, 11 pm, 12:30 am, 2:00 am and again at 3:45 am. A Boxer breeder friend of mine recommended giving him a half tablet of Pepto Bismol twice a day, and as long as he was taking the Pepto, the diarrhrea was at bay, and the stool was nearly normal. Yesterday was his first Pepto free day and last night I was out with him three times in the night to defecate. He's back at the Vet and they are keeping him for a few days to run tests.

The thing is, I have been researching digestive problems in Golden Retrievers and have found that diets low in protein can cause all sorts of gastro intestinal problems. Most websites that are private sites seem hesitant to recommend any one food, but I was hoping someone here could recommend something that worked for them if they had a similiar situation.

Murphy has never been lethargic. He's playful and happy being his old rambumctious self. There is nothing in the yard he is nibbling, and the grass hasn't been treated. Frankly I am at my wit's end on what commercial dogfood to feed him and have been flirting with the idea of making my own food for him...its that bad.

Anyone have any ideas, or recommendations they could pass on to a couple of sleep deprived working women?